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Post by fretslider on Oct 16, 2010 8:14:11 GMT -5
"Fret's post, like your own, is FULL of irrational prejudice and blind hatred." Sheikh Maulana Abu Sayeed, the senior Muslim cleric in charge of Britain’s largest group of sharia law courts, has decreed that there is no such thing as rape within marriage. What? Sayeed said that sex without a wife’s consent was “not good” but it could not be called rape. Rape within marriage has been illegal in Britain since 1991. But according to Sayeed, rape is defined in Islamic law as adultery by force. Therefore, if a husband forces himself upon his wife the attack cannot be termed “rape”. Sayeed, it should be remembered, demands that all Western/Christian men should not be allowed to see the face or body shape of his women, yet its ok for muslim husbands to rape them. How many women here agree with Sayeed? Does Beez, I wonder? Dave Whatton, Chief Constable of Cheshire and spokesman on rape for the Association of Chief Police Officers, said most rapes were committed by someone known to or in a relationship with the victim. “It is a fundamental principle that sharia law should not replace the laws of the UK,” he said. “Putting out views that rape can be dealt with in another way fundamentally undermines everything we are trying to do.” And that is exactly what they are trying to do. Islam cannot exist under our system of one law for all. Perhaps this outburst will destroy once and for all the foolish notion that opposition to the creeping islamification of Britain can only be motivated by bigotry and prejudice. Please indicate where it is FULL of irrational prejudice and blind hatred. I was really hoping you'd tell me where my post is full of irrational prejudice and blind hatred. Looks like I'm going to be disappointed.
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aubrey
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Post by aubrey on Oct 16, 2010 13:06:18 GMT -5
Mouse - I'm not condoning rape in marriage - I'm just saying that we are not so far ahead of the most backward muslim. And that most people who are against the law will be non-muslim - they are exactly the kind of person who will say that everything they don't like is PC gone mad.
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Erasmus
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Post by Erasmus on Oct 16, 2010 15:40:25 GMT -5
Sheikh Sayeed can have what he likes in his interpretation of Shariya law. Other clerics will disagree with him, the law of the land will say what it says and some of non-Moslems will agree with him (particularly I imagine fundamentalist Mormons), or there would never have been a need for this law in the first place. Even states basing their civil law on Shariya can ignore him because the requirement is not to allow anything Shariya forbids, not to disallow anything it ignores.
In any case, the fact that this is a recent law which caused a certain amount of controversy at the time, only shows the Holy Man less than 50 years behind 'us' - more like about 30.
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Post by fretslider on Oct 16, 2010 16:38:15 GMT -5
Sheikh Sayeed can have what he likes in his interpretation of Shariya law. Other clerics will disagree with him, the law of the land will say what it says and some of non-Moslems will agree with him (particularly I imagine fundamentalist Mormons), or there would never have been a need for this law in the first place. Even states basing their civil law on Shariya can ignore him because the requirement is not to allow anything Shariya forbids, not to disallow anything it ignores. In any case, the fact that this is a recent law which caused a certain amount of controversy at the time, only shows the Holy Man less than 50 years behind 'us' - more like about 30. You too labour under western thinking. Islam has no order or hierarchy like the church. It matters not if other clerics disagree, his word, in his position, counts. They're a lot further than 30 years behind us on many, many things.
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Erasmus
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Post by Erasmus on Oct 16, 2010 17:30:17 GMT -5
That is precisely the point: because Islam is the original Protestant religion, his word means nothing at all except to his own followers. There's not much in most Moslem countries that you would not have found in the Bible Belt 50 years ago or in pre-Communist Eastern Europe.
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Post by fretslider on Oct 17, 2010 3:01:43 GMT -5
That is precisely the point: because Islam is the original Protestant religion, his word means nothing at all except to his own followers. There's not much in most Moslem countries that you would not have found in the Bible Belt 50 years ago or in pre-Communist Eastern Europe. As I told aubrey, the point is we can make, change and amend our laws. A set of laws based on primitive 7th century texts is no way to progress now, is it. Muslims believe Allah set out their laws and they are superior to man made - our - laws. It is incompatible with our values and way of life.
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aubrey
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Post by aubrey on Oct 17, 2010 5:24:37 GMT -5
And they interperate them as they want to do, to fit with their own beliefs. Just as all religious folk do.
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Post by fretslider on Oct 17, 2010 5:40:38 GMT -5
The interpretation tends to follow the Wahhabi line. Backward religious law has no place in this country for all the reasons that have been set out.
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Post by mouse on Oct 17, 2010 6:26:51 GMT -5
And they interperate them as they want to do, to fit with their own beliefs. Just as all religious folk do. which is why we have secular law...and this man and his adherents have NO bussines what ever in trying to dispute that secular law...if they dont like it they can do the other.... its no odds whether we put in laws..a thousand yrs ago or yesterday..this man has NO RIGHT to dispute...or give out a message that rape within marriage is ok...had it been one of our law lords which had said the same thing the sky would have faallen in and i didnt for one moment think you would condone rape in marriage aubrey..i hope i didnt sugest that in any way
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2010 6:22:22 GMT -5
fear is rational when the fear is likely to transform into actuality..we are not talking fear of spiders or clowns here...but a set of laws...writ down enforceable laws where sharia is in control and ugly in its control of course there are plenty of athiests who comit rape...and your point is..what as we are not talking about athiests.. i dont doubt for one moment you think you are tollorant..nor do i doubt you think your self a suporter of freedoms and compassion but some of the things you say put a question mark on your abilklity to aknowledge the freedoms and tollorance toward others to dispute your held belifes and bringing in irelevencies gains us nothing Islam is a DYING religion which is why the fundamentalists are grasping so desperately to try and enforce it. It is also NOT true that Islam supports rape. For what it's worth you can find passages in ANY religious text that can be used to support everything from genocide, slavery, rape and murder. I am NOT afraid of the religious zealots because ultimately they will NOT triumph. Even in their OWN countries they are facing increasing opposition from the people. What I AM afraid of is intolerance whatever the source is. I worry about those who, in the name of FIGHTING other people's intolerance, display their OWN and cannot see the contradiction. The real fear is that (and governments have been using it very successfully particularly over the last ten to fifteen years) by building up a genuine but MINOR problem into a MAJOR scare what is happening is that those in power who wish their own people nothing but harm seize upon it as an excuse to restrict and abolish the freedoms of their own people. Whether it's Clinton or Blair or Bush the reaction is the same. A hidden agenda of destroying civil liberties is being followed. In the 1950s Joseph McCarthy ruined countless lives with his obsessive notion of 'Reds under the bed.' In the same way the latter day McCarthyists, whether out of ignorance or wilfully, use the equally obsessive notion of 'a terrorist on every corner' to ruin the lives of our people. Like Communism, Islamic fundamentalism will ultimately die. It's inevitable and it's already happening. Iran in particular has seen a huge groundswell of popular disapproval of the Islamic regime and it's inevitable that it WILL collapse, just as ALL tyrannies do over the course of time. The tragedy is that those who wish harm to our own democratic, liberal and libertarian ideas for OTHER reasons have the perfect EXCUSE by using the grossly overblown 'Islamic threat' as an excuse to push through their REAL agenda which is of course to destroy our freedoms and turn us all into gullible slaves. I am on the side of the slaves; they are on the side of the masters.
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Post by mouse on Oct 19, 2010 7:00:05 GMT -5
while it may die eventually its had a bloody and violent 1400 yr run and i agree that islam is in its death throes...the trouble is we are alive and vunerable while it dies... i also agree about civil liberties etc etc ....but i think we are all capable of fighting on two fronts ....but if you think the islamic threat is not real and is overblown then your not listening..not watching.....the islamic threat is a real and present as well as past danger and will not die quietly or without more bloodshed
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Post by fretslider on Oct 19, 2010 7:06:20 GMT -5
fear is rational when the fear is likely to transform into actuality..we are not talking fear of spiders or clowns here...but a set of laws...writ down enforceable laws where sharia is in control and ugly in its control of course there are plenty of athiests who comit rape...and your point is..what as we are not talking about athiests.. i dont doubt for one moment you think you are tollorant..nor do i doubt you think your self a suporter of freedoms and compassion but some of the things you say put a question mark on your abilklity to aknowledge the freedoms and tollorance toward others to dispute your held belifes and bringing in irelevencies gains us nothing Islam is a DYING religion which is why the fundamentalists are grasping so desperately to try and enforce it. It is also NOT true that Islam supports rape. For what it's worth you can find passages in ANY religious text that can be used to support everything from genocide, slavery, rape and murder. I am NOT afraid of the religious zealots because ultimately they will NOT triumph. Even in their OWN countries they are facing increasing opposition from the people. What I AM afraid of is intolerance whatever the source is. I worry about those who, in the name of FIGHTING other people's intolerance, display their OWN and cannot see the contradiction. The real fear is that (and governments have been using it very successfully particularly over the last ten to fifteen years) by building up a genuine but MINOR problem into a MAJOR scare what is happening is that those in power who wish their own people nothing but harm seize upon it as an excuse to restrict and abolish the freedoms of their own people. Whether it's Clinton or Blair or Bush the reaction is the same. A hidden agenda of destroying civil liberties is being followed. In the 1950s Joseph McCarthy ruined countless lives with his obsessive notion of 'Reds under the bed.' In the same way the latter day McCarthyists, whether out of ignorance or wilfully, use the equally obsessive notion of 'a terrorist on every corner' to ruin the lives of our people. Like Communism, Islamic fundamentalism will ultimately die. It's inevitable and it's already happening. Iran in particular has seen a huge groundswell of popular disapproval of the Islamic regime and it's inevitable that it WILL collapse, just as ALL tyrannies do over the course of time. The tragedy is that those who wish harm to our own democratic, liberal and libertarian ideas for OTHER reasons have the perfect EXCUSE by using the grossly overblown 'Islamic threat' as an excuse to push through their REAL agenda which is of course to destroy our freedoms and turn us all into gullible slaves. I am on the side of the slaves; they are on the side of the masters. So you are far more learned than the Islamic scholars and its your job to explain it to us LOL Why make yourself seem ridiculous? Is it an inbuilt stumble? "Sayeed said that sex without a wife’s consent was “not good” but it could not be called rape. Rape within marriage has been illegal in Britain since 1991. But according to Sayeed, rape is defined in Islamic law as adultery by force. Therefore, if a husband forces himself upon his wife the attack cannot be termed “rape”. " All those red herrings of yours are not worth wasting time. Now do tell me where my OP was full of irrational prejudice and blind hatred. I have waited patiently.....
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Post by mouse on Oct 19, 2010 7:32:48 GMT -5
popular disaproval in iran ...irak is not the entire islamic world..and there are other factors at play in iran...meanwhile they are waiting in the wings in pakistan..afghanistan yemen..syria..jordan...egypt..vietnam..indonesia..malaya etc etc etc one country does not make collapse inevitable any time soon
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Erasmus
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Post by Erasmus on Oct 19, 2010 19:37:59 GMT -5
And where are there not Christian fundamentalists waiting in the wings? Well, the USA for a start - there, they are out in force demonstrating against every liberal move since separation of Church and State in 1776.
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Post by mouse on Oct 20, 2010 2:01:49 GMT -5
And where are there not Christian fundamentalists waiting in the wings? Well, the USA for a start - there, they are out in force demonstrating against every liberal move since separation of Church and State in 1776. when chrisytian fundementals are killing all over the planet i shall start to complain...until then demonstrating in one country is not quite the same thing as activly murdering and causing mayhem world wide..... fail to see how demonstrating equals bombing night clubs,,acid attacks and derailing trains
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