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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 8:19:26 GMT -5
so what? the choice is to fight them buthold on to what makes us better and NOT to become as bad as they are and don't forget i'm NOT one of thosxe people whose naive about the danger from muslim extremists; i'm someone who would be on their death list because i;m half Jewish and who supports Israel all the way but i;m totally committed to the values of the Western liberal tradition conservatism (*even though i voted Tory in 2010) always makes my flesh creep with its authoritairnaism and hatred of freedom and lack of respect for other people it's not that different from islam to be honest "even though i voted Tory in 2010" That's a coincidence, you remind me of someone else who voted Tory in 2010 Don;t know what you;re taliing about;l a few million p0eople voted Tory in 2110
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 16:24:54 GMT -5
"""But I honestly believe that morality and decency will win out in the end in spite of all the oppressors on left, right and religious zealots""". well it didnt win out in Russia Germany turkey and so on and so forth ...and it certainly hasn't won out in world islam and we have 1400 yrs of documented oppression to prove it it has never won out when faced with either right or left.....the moral high ground doesn't look so good when the highest you get is swinging from a rope What a strange view of history you have. Your comment about Turkey is particularly inapplicable since it remains a functioning democracy and a secular state whose status as a non-religious nation is guaranteed by the constitution. If when you refer to Russia and Germany you are speaking of the Nazis and Communists then in the first place their triumph was a purely temporary one and secondly the fundamental problem was that the people of Russia had a bare few months of highly dubious democracy and in Germany the Weimar Republic had been violating its own constitution for years (read up on the career of, for instance, the Social Democrat Noske, the Catholic Bruning and other almost equally questionable politicians.) So your perception of the historical record is selective and questionable at best. And of course it has long been apparent to anyone who studies world history and world politics that one cannot predict the future behaviour of nations or their leaders by past actions. Nor when you speak of Islam is it remotely accurate to speak of 1400 years of documented oppression. For that matter one could just as easily point to around the same length of time for documented oppression by Christians of non-Christians or heretical Christians. And around a thousand years of documented oppression of non-Jews or heretical Jews under Judaism. So your selective indignation does you no credit as well as being inaccurate.
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Post by mouse on May 31, 2013 1:52:33 GMT -5
oh Michael your memory is soooooo selective or is it getting simply fuzzy
Lin wrote """But I honestly believe that morality and decency will win out in the end in spite of all the oppressors on left, right and religious zealots""". and I then gave the names of three countries which had mass murdered men women children etc to prove that morality didnt win out and decency never stood a cat in hells chance lets take Russia first..no morality or decency under the tzars and the ruling classes..none under comunism and non under their present system.. come on just how long are you going to wait for morality and deceny..centuries..years..weeks..forever perhaps the same goes for Germany..you don't need me to catalogue their history and turkey [or perhaps you bypassed the Armenian genocide/mass murders [TWICE]and the antics of the Ottomans
"""Nor when you speak of Islam is it remotely accurate to speak of 1400 years of documented oppression"""" it is very easily accurate to speak of 14000yrs of Islamic oppression and its all very well documented
and of course you have made my point for me by adding little titbits proving that mora\lity and decency don't win out and it doesn't all end up living happy ever after....the three random choices stand of where it hasn't ended up with decency or morality winning...and no body is standing singing kumbya
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Tempus Fugit
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Post by Tempus Fugit on May 31, 2013 3:25:28 GMT -5
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Post by markindurham on May 31, 2013 3:39:45 GMT -5
oh Michael your memory is soooooo selective or is it getting simply fuzzy Lin wrote """But I honestly believe that morality and decency will win out in the end in spite of all the oppressors on left, right and religious zealots""". and I then gave the names of three countries which had mass murdered men women children etc to prove that morality didnt win out and decency never stood a cat in hells chance lets take Russia first..no morality or decency under the tzars and the ruling classes..none under comunism and non under their present system.. come on just how long are you going to wait for morality and deceny..centuries..years..weeks..forever perhaps the same goes for Germany..you don't need me to catalogue their history and turkey [or perhaps you bypassed the Armenian genocide/mass murders [TWICE]and the antics of the Ottomans """Nor when you speak of Islam is it remotely accurate to speak of 1400 years of documented oppression"""" it is very easily accurate to speak of 14000yrs of Islamic oppression and its all very well documented and of course you have made my point for me by adding little titbits proving that mora\lity and decency don't win out and it doesn't all end up living happy ever after....the three random choices stand of where it hasn't ended up with decency or morality winning...and no body is standing singing kumbya And we STILL await proof positive that the arrival of the cult of islam has a positive and beneficial effect on the indigenous populace. Why, could it possibly be that this is indeed an impossible task? Who'd have thunk it, eh?
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Post by markindurham on May 31, 2013 3:50:31 GMT -5
There is indeed - and it is gaining pace. Yet the tossers in Brussels want to let Turkey into the EU!!!
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Tempus Fugit
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Post by Tempus Fugit on May 31, 2013 4:21:47 GMT -5
There is indeed - and it is gaining pace. Yet the tossers in Brussels want to let Turkey into the EU!!! They can have our seat at the table!
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Post by markindurham on May 31, 2013 4:44:02 GMT -5
There is indeed - and it is gaining pace. Yet the tossers in Brussels want to let Turkey into the EU!!! They can have our seat at the table! Seems reasonable to me - also, look at the financial benefit to the EU coffers that Turkey would bring with it - oh, wait a moment...
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Post by fretslider on May 31, 2013 7:27:36 GMT -5
Turkey won't get in, ask the Austrians and Hungarians, what they think.....
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Post by markindurham on May 31, 2013 7:58:19 GMT -5
Turkey won't get in, ask the Austrians and Hungarians, what they think..... And their views count because...? We all know that Brussels will do what it likes; the façade of democracy has long corroded away...
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Tempus Fugit
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Post by Tempus Fugit on May 31, 2013 8:19:26 GMT -5
Turkey won't get in, ask the Austrians and Hungarians, what they think..... And their views count because...? We all know that Brussels will do what it likes; the façade of democracy has long corroded away... Brussels will do what the Germans and French want. If Germany says "No" then that should, on past form, be that. Look at the social tensions they've had for decades with their Turks - and coming on the increased crap their papers and UKIP-equivalent party say they are getting as a result of EU expansion already it's a fair bet they'll veto a Turkish entry if for no other reason than to avoid the levels of civil unrest that were seen in the Balkans - and look what happened there; civil war, with all sorts of bonus nastiness because it was essentially an ethnic war not a state vs. downtrodden populace wanting a different system like, ironically, Romania's largely bloodless revolution was.
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Post by markindurham on May 31, 2013 8:24:29 GMT -5
And their views count because...? We all know that Brussels will do what it likes; the façade of democracy has long corroded away... Brussels will do what the Germans and French want. If Germany says "No" then that should, on past form, be that. Look at the social tensions they've had for decades with their Turks - and coming on the increased crap their papers and UKIP-equivalent party say they are getting as a result of EU expansion already it's a fair bet they'll veto a Turkish entry if for no other reason than to avoid the levels of civil unrest that were seen in the Balkans - and look what happened there; civil war, with all sorts of bonus nastiness because it was essentially an ethnic war not a state vs. downtrodden populace wanting a different system like, ironically, Romania's largely bloodless revolution was. I would have agreed 100% until only a few weeks ago; however, as you say, even the Germans are getting fed up with supporting failed EU nations - but that's ordinary folk, not the political elite. Once the elections are over in September, watch out for further expansion of the EU & its powers if that's what the likes of Merkel want...
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Tempus Fugit
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Post by Tempus Fugit on May 31, 2013 8:33:52 GMT -5
It wasn't because us and France wanted the embargo on Syria lifting that we got it. It was because France wanted it. If we'd been trying to get it lifted on our own we'd have been told, "Non" and that would be that.
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Tempus Fugit
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Post by Tempus Fugit on May 31, 2013 8:35:33 GMT -5
Brussels will do what the Germans and French want. If Germany says "No" then that should, on past form, be that. Look at the social tensions they've had for decades with their Turks - and coming on the increased crap their papers and UKIP-equivalent party say they are getting as a result of EU expansion already it's a fair bet they'll veto a Turkish entry if for no other reason than to avoid the levels of civil unrest that were seen in the Balkans - and look what happened there; civil war, with all sorts of bonus nastiness because it was essentially an ethnic war not a state vs. downtrodden populace wanting a different system like, ironically, Romania's largely bloodless revolution was. I would have agreed 100% until only a few weeks ago; however, as you say, even the Germans are getting fed up with supporting failed EU nations - but that's ordinary folk, not the political elite. Once the elections are over in September, watch out for further expansion of the EU & its powers if that's what the likes of Merkel want... You've sort of confirmed my opening there - Brussels will do what ze Germanz and the Frogs want it to do.
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Post by fretslider on May 31, 2013 11:43:13 GMT -5
Turkey won't get in, ask the Austrians and Hungarians, what they think..... And their views count because...? We all know that Brussels will do what it likes; the façade of democracy has long corroded away... Their views count because this isn't decided by QMV
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