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Post by fretslider on May 29, 2013 12:37:13 GMT -5
Unfortunately, to them those are all signs of weakness to be exploited. Which they do. so what? the choice is to fight them buthold on to what makes us better and NOT to become as bad as they are and don't forget i'm NOT one of thosxe people whose naive about the danger from muslim extremists; i'm someone who would be on their death list because i;m half Jewish and who supports Israel all the way but i;m totally committed to the values of the Western liberal tradition conservatism (*even though i voted Tory in 2010) always makes my flesh creep with its authoritairnaism and hatred of freedom and lack of respect for other people it's not that different from islam to be honest "even though i voted Tory in 2010" That's a coincidence, you remind me of someone else who voted Tory in 2010 |
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Post by markindurham on May 29, 2013 12:45:41 GMT -5
so what? the choice is to fight them buthold on to what makes us better and NOT to become as bad as they are and don't forget i'm NOT one of thosxe people whose naive about the danger from muslim extremists; i'm someone who would be on their death list because i;m half Jewish and who supports Israel all the way but i;m totally committed to the values of the Western liberal tradition conservatism (*even though i voted Tory in 2010) always makes my flesh creep with its authoritairnaism and hatred of freedom and lack of respect for other people it's not that different from islam to be honest "even though i voted Tory in 2010" That's a coincidence, you remind me of someone else who voted Tory in 2010 I didn't, so you can't blame me!!! |
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Post by markindurham on May 29, 2013 12:49:55 GMT -5
Unfortunately, the only way to deal with zealots like that is to fight fire with hotter fire; to make them more scared of us than we could be of them. Not the current path of hand-wringing and appeasement practised by the blinkered yoghurt-knitting sock-puppets of the liberati. Concur 100% - it IS the only way; history tells us this, and remember 'those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them' Some need to take the mote from their eye  |
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Tempus Fugit
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Post by Tempus Fugit on May 29, 2013 14:28:24 GMT -5
"even though i voted Tory in 2010" That's a coincidence, you remind me of someone else who voted Tory in 2010 I didn't, so you can't blame me!!! I have to admit that I temporarily binned UKIP and voted Tory in the vain hope we'd bin the LimpDumb and decisively shove Brown and Co. out of the picture for a long time, whilst knowing that the UKIP candidate wouldn't do too well. We still have the LimpDumb so I might as well have helped skew the stats with UKIP votes anyway. If only I'd known then what I know now - a quarter of the vote and third place...! |
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ladylinda
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Post by ladylinda on May 29, 2013 14:39:14 GMT -5
In the first place I'm sorry if my post came across as some kind of lecture; it wasn't meant to but maybe sometimes I get a bit exasperated at having to defend liberal values on the most BASIC level such as respect for life, the presumption of toleration, maximising freedom and so on.
As for the idea that (I'm quoting Tempus' post now):
Unfortunately, the only way to deal with zealots like that is to fight fire with hotter fire; to make them more scared of us than we could be of them.
Not the current path of hand-wringing and appeasement practised by the blinkered yoghurt-knitting sock-puppets of the liberati.
what I'd say is that a) history shows the OPPOSITE of that to be true; when the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union they were welcomed as liberators before people realised they were even worse than Stalin; b) the moral principle that two wrongs don't make a right is still pretty much accepted by everyone; c) people who are prepared to be suicide bombers CAN'T be intimidated even by terror so it's a waste of time even trying.
Most fundamental of all your mistakes, you're assuming that you have to be some kind of PC wet behind the ears wimpish type to be a supporter of liberal values.
Liberalism has always had to be fought for; we cut off a king's head in Britain, deposed another, stood up to Napoleon, Kaiser Bill and Hitler and then stood against Communism during the Cold War.
Liberal values are what MAKES the West civilised and better and it's very sad the way that rightoids in their attempt to destroy freedom, tolerance and compassion use genuine issues as a cover for their real sinister agenda which is to betray our country into the hands of those who have ALWAYS been its enemies and who want nothing more than to enslave and to destroy us.
Not ONCE have I ever said anything BUT that I condemn ALL terrorism.
Not ONCE have I ever said anything BUT that I condemn ALL religious extremism.
But I know that I look on our liberal values are precious gems and that letting them go simply because of some scumbag terrorists is totally the wrong answer.
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Post by beth on May 29, 2013 14:44:06 GMT -5
Lin, you were the one who started beating the drum about toleration, freedom, fairness, etc.. Nobody else mentioned them. It wasn't part of the discussion until you tried to insert it and change the direction of the thread. That isn't as easy for you to do here as, perhaps, it is elsewhere.
I do believe the conversation on this thread was totally civil before your first post. Now, you've made it all about you.
End of
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ladylinda
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Post by ladylinda on May 29, 2013 14:47:51 GMT -5
Unfortunately, the only way to deal with zealots like that is to fight fire with hotter fire; to make them more scared of us than we could be of them. Not the current path of hand-wringing and appeasement practised by the blinkered yoghurt-knitting sock-puppets of the liberati. Concur 100% - it IS the only way; history tells us this, and remember 'those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them' Some need to take the mote from their eye Having liberal values of tolerance, freedom, compassion and so on is totally NOT remotely like appeasement. By the way appeasement was directed towards the Nazis and (on the left) the Communists. History tells us that, as Jefferson famously said, 'a nation that values security over freedom will end up having neither.' The lesson of history is that the MORE liberal values dominate a society the MORE civilised it becomes. And what Jesus said about the mote was that it was all very well noticing the mote in your brother's eye but it was totally wrong NOT to notice the beam in your OWN eye! But I honestly believe that morality and decency will win out in the end in spite of all the oppressors on left, right and religious zealots. Us liberals stand for a higher set of values than they do with their prejudices and intolerance and hatred of freedom, compassion and tolerance. |
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ladylinda
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Post by ladylinda on May 29, 2013 14:51:43 GMT -5
Lin, you were the one who started beating the drum about toleration, freedom, fairness, etc.. Nobody else mentioned them. It wasn't part of the discussion until you tried to insert it and change the direction of the thread. That isn't as easy for you to do here as, perhaps, it is elsewhere. I do believe the conversation on this thread was totally civil before your first post. Now, you've made it all about you. End of Beth, I honestly felt (and still do feel) that the whole nature of this thread WAS concerned with those issues. I responded to what I saw as a post attacking those values and that's all. For what it's worth I tend to try and stay on topic and loads of other posters are always changing the direction of threads and you don't tell them off for it. And I don't agree at all that this conversation is either rude or about me. But I can only assume that you interpret it that way in which case you give me no option but to stop posting on this thread. |
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Post by markindurham on May 29, 2013 15:03:17 GMT -5
Concur 100% - it IS the only way; history tells us this, and remember 'those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them' Some need to take the mote from their eye Having liberal values of tolerance, freedom, compassion and so on is totally NOT remotely like appeasement. By the way appeasement was directed towards the Nazis and (on the left) the Communists. History tells us that, as Jefferson famously said, 'a nation that values security over freedom will end up having neither.' The lesson of history is that the MORE liberal values dominate a society the MORE civilised it becomes. And what Jesus said about the mote was that it was all very well noticing the mote in your brother's eye but it was totally wrong NOT to notice the beam in your OWN eye! But I honestly believe that morality and decency will win out in the end in spite of all the oppressors on left, right and religious zealots. Us liberals stand for a higher set of values than they do with their prejudices and intolerance and hatred of freedom, compassion and tolerance. Well, you carry on in your own fluffy little world, Lin, but it won't save you when the time comes - the Rules of Engagement for dealing with the fundies are different to the more 'civilised' wars of recent times |
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Post by markindurham on May 29, 2013 15:11:17 GMT -5
I didn't, so you can't blame me!!! I have to admit that I temporarily binned UKIP and voted Tory in the vain hope we'd bin the LimpDumb and decisively shove Brown and Co. out of the picture for a long time, whilst knowing that the UKIP candidate wouldn't do too well. We still have the LimpDumb so I might as well have helped skew the stats with UKIP votes anyway. If only I'd known then what I know now - a quarter of the vote and third place...! Nothing wrong with tactical voting - I've been doing it for years - but I would draw the line at EVER voting for <hawk, spit> a Labour candidate |
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Post by beth on May 29, 2013 15:36:26 GMT -5
Lin, you're still attempting to mislead in re the direction of the thread. All are welcome and able to look back and see that you were the one who brought up the points you are referencing and inserted them into the discussion. There's no argument, it's all in past, dated, posts. It's kind of like politicians who run around claiming they didn't say something when media has tape of them blathering away.
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Post by markindurham on May 29, 2013 15:45:02 GMT -5
Lin, you're still attempting to mislead in re the direction of the thread. All are welcome and able to look back and see that you were the one who brought up the points you are referencing and inserted them into the discussion. There's no argument, it's all in past, dated, posts. It's kind of like politicians who run around claiming they didn't say something when media has tape of them blathering away. I believe that's sometimes referred to as a 'trademark'; the ignoble art of obfuscation  |
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Post by beth on May 29, 2013 15:49:06 GMT -5
When in trouble, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout
and
deny deny deny
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Post by markindurham on May 29, 2013 15:57:28 GMT -5
When in trouble, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout and deny deny deny Or attempt to either move the target or blame someone else... |
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Post by fretslider on May 29, 2013 16:58:11 GMT -5
Very true. We wish to live; the islamist welcomes death, with the promises of all sorts of goodies in the afterlife - particularly if you got topped whilst fighting for your sky fairy... What grips my s**t is the radicals allowed to freely walk amongst us claiming we are killing their brothers in Syria. Do they think we're that that thick? Assad is killing them - and he's getting his weapons from Russia, not the EU! Hague is talking about getting the embargo dropped so we can arm the dissidents so they can "defend themselves." That's still wrong, according to Choudary. It's still wrong according to me, too, since it seems if we do that we'll be arming a sizeable number of AQ wannabe's. Pouring more arms in will do us no favours, they can get arms from their Arab brethren in Lebanon etc. Whatever follows Assad will probably be a fairly fundamentalist Islamic state. |
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Alpha 
