arizonavet
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Post by arizonavet on Jun 7, 2011 13:40:35 GMT -5
The thing is, she appears to be living a crime free, incident free, kiddy-killing free, life. If she did it, why shouldn't the same system be suitable for Thompson and Venables? (Literally the same system, she was held in the same place apparently). So there's the reasoning for thinking it was okay to release the two young men. And one of them (like Mary Bell, who is now a grandmother) has gone on to form a family and appears to be 'rehabiliated' or at least not a danger to anyone. And one of them is obviously not okay. But his second crime, as loathsome as it may be, is hardly comparable to his first; so to execute for that second crime seems almost arbitrary, the second crime not being one that ever carries a life sentence. Vengeful instead of rational? ? Why are many citizens reticent to release child killers from prison? Because the risk is so terrible trubble.... Normal 10 years old kids don't rape 2 year olds, then bash their heads in. It's obvious that something is horribly wrong within his demented head. This is the essence of rationality. If Venables had been caught stealing a pack of cigarettes, OK....I wouldn't see the connection with his past crime. He simply left no doubt that he is still screwed up in the head....normal people don't find children attractive. You honestly don't see the "connection"....or danger? If his next crime was fondling a child....well, no problem....his crime would be far less than raping & murdering a child? He should have NO rights.....rape & murder a 2 year old at ANY age, and you are too dangerous to expect society to trust you, ever again.....the English courts saw that...he is on lifetime parole....or the English equivilent. He broke it....he should be put away forever.
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Post by trubble on Jun 8, 2011 2:48:04 GMT -5
I do see the connection between the two acts, of course, just not anything in the second crime that screams for execution because really you'd be executing him for a crime he committed when he was a child.
He has shown that he is not harmless, I agree with that. Maybe the difficulty is that they don't have anywhere to put him... perhaps a mental health institution.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2011 6:08:49 GMT -5
There is nothing wrong with Venables,
that a bullet between the eyes won't cure.
Prashna
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arizonavet
Journeyman
Protect the Innocent & Drink Belgian Ale
Posts: 351
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Post by arizonavet on Jun 8, 2011 6:58:26 GMT -5
I do see the connection between the two acts, of course, just not anything in the second crime that screams for execution because really you'd be executing him for a crime he committed when he was a child. He has shown that he is not harmless, I agree with that. Maybe the difficulty is that they don't have anywhere to put him... perhaps a mental health institution. We pretty much agree trubble....the time is gone to execute him...his age let him slip through the cracks & he hasn't committed another capital crime. Hospital?.....no, if we hospitalized every child molester the cost of incarcerating these animals would be prohibitive & there is no evidence that science can change a pedophile's propensity to molest children.... IMHO...they are dangerously & hopelessly "broke".
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Post by trubble on Jun 8, 2011 8:10:03 GMT -5
I think calling him a paedophile is unhelpful and possibly untrue. He murdered and tortured as a child, maybe he's a psychopath; his home life was ..odd.. he seems to have received some odd understanding of life, maybe he's the product of twisted and violent messages from home -- oh he's broken, alright, no question about it, but maybe this downloading of child porn has more to do with his history than his predilections.
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arizonavet
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Post by arizonavet on Jun 8, 2011 8:36:30 GMT -5
At the trial it was established that at this location, one of the boys threw blue Humbrol modelling paint, which they had shoplifted earlier, into Bulger's left eye.[10] They kicked and stamped on him, and threw bricks and stones at him. Batteries were placed in Bulger's mouth.[20] Police believed some batteries may have been inserted into his anus, although none were found there.[3] Finally, a 22-pound (10.0 kg) iron bar, described in court as a railway fishplate, was dropped on him.[21][22][23] Bulger suffered ten skull fractures as a result of the iron bar striking his head. Dr. Alan Williams, the case's pathologist, stated that Bulger suffered so many injuries — 42 in total — that none could be isolated as the fatal blow.[24]
Police suspected that there was a sexual element to the crime, since Bulger's shoes, stockings, trousers and underpants had been removed. The pathologist's report read out in court stated that Bulger's foreskin had been forcibly retracted. Wikipedia
I have no problem whatever calling both these monsters, pedophiles......at least ONE of them had to be, and I think we now know which one, if not both.
They're not just "broke".....a chronic shoplifter is "broke"....they're unbelievably dangerously broke.
Remember, the victim they're calling "Bulger" was TWO year old James.
They're walking around in public, right now....and the same public is paying to have their annonimity guaranteed.....
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Post by trubble on Jun 8, 2011 8:44:46 GMT -5
I really don't need a reminder. Jamie Bulger was near enough my daughter's age for it to have hit home very strongly at the time and ever since. I expect no one needs to be reminded. I expect it didn't even take having a kid, never mind the same age, to be horrified and to never forget this horror.
They were given anonymity because the public horror and need for resolution of the crime was such that the powers that be thought it fit to release their names -- something they really shouldn't have done as it was an unusual step. Then the public horror and outrage did not abate, naturally, and the powers that be decided they were 'the most notorious' / 'most hated' boys in the country and needed to be granted false identities if they weren't to be murdered themselves -- either in or out of prison.
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arizonavet
Journeyman
Protect the Innocent & Drink Belgian Ale
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Post by arizonavet on Jun 8, 2011 8:57:30 GMT -5
I really don't need a reminder. Jamie Bulger was near enough my daughter's age for it to have hit home very strongly at the time and ever since. I expect no one needs to be reminded. I expect it didn't even take having a kid, never mind the same age, to be horrified and to never forget this horror. They were given anonymity because the public horror and need for resolution of the crime was such that the powers that be thought it fit to release their names -- something they really shouldn't have done as it was an unusual step. Then the public horror and outrage did not abate, naturally, and the powers that be decided they were 'the most notorious' boys in the country and needed to be granted false identities if they weren't to be murdered themselves -- either in or out of prison. Didn't mean to upset you trubble...just wanted to make it clear how calling him a pedophile was a very logical conclusion...particularly in light of his downloading child porn after his release..... Every time a Brit citizen even THINKS about releasing Venables....they should read an accurate & graphic report of his crime.....not for sensationalism....for absolutly nessessary protection of their children & grandchildren. The "rights" of Venables & Thompson are completely secondary to the protection of our most vulnerable citizens.
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Post by trubble on Jun 8, 2011 9:24:37 GMT -5
I wasn't upset but thanks anyway. I've offered an alternative thought to why he might be downloading that stuff - he may be traumatised himself and have no coping mechanism other than to forever be the murdering and sexually disturbed boy he was.
That doesn't negate any of the horror of his crime. If I was Denise Bulger, I'd be prepared to murder him in cold blood, and make him suffer, nothing quick. But that's not justice, it's not part of a healthy society and it's not necessarily going to be good for my own mental health.
Is Venables up for parole this week?
I hope he doesn't get it. I hope they keep him in, and then stick him in a psychiatric unit, and that they don't release him unless they are 99% sure he is a changed man, as they have done with the Yorkshire Ripper.
And I suspect he won't be changed at this stage. He's.. what, 30 now? He won't be rehabilitated. Ok, call him a paedophile then. Maybe there's no other label for him.
However, Mary Bell and Robert Thompson were released without further danger to the community. And that supports the release programme.
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arizonavet
Journeyman
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Posts: 351
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Post by arizonavet on Jun 8, 2011 10:19:36 GMT -5
I wasn't upset but thanks anyway. I've offered an alternative thought to why he might be downloading that stuff - he may be traumatised himself and have no coping mechanism other than to forever be the murdering and sexually disturbed boy he was. That doesn't negate any of the horror of his crime. If I was Denise Bulger, I'd be prepared to murder him in cold blood, and make him suffer, nothing quick. But that's not justice, it's not part of a healthy society and it's not necessarily going to be good for my own mental health. Is Venables up for parole this week? I hope he doesn't get it. I hope they keep him in, and then stick him in a psychiatric unit, and that they don't release him unless they are 99% sure he is a changed man, as they have done with the Yorkshire Ripper. And I suspect he won't be changed at this stage. He's.. what, 30 now? He won't be rehabilitated. Ok, call him a paedophile then. Maybe there's no other label for him. However, Mary Bell and Robert Thompson were released without further danger to the community. And that supports the release programme. Always love to at least partially agree The community were Bell & Thompson were released into took a terrific risk....perhaps they "tossed the dice" and won....so far I just don't have much, if any, compassion for child torturers/murderers.....at any age. Noted American child murderers Leopold & Loeb who thrill-killed 14 year old Bobby Franks. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_and_LoebCoincidentally....they too disposed of the body near railroad tracks... Loeb was murdered while in prison in 1936....he was killed for his money....both Loeb & Leopold were from privileged, wealthy families that supported them while in prison. They were also highly educated & considered above average intelligence. Their whole motive for killing Bobby was to prove that they could outwit the police. They were easily caught....Leopold left his precription glasses at the crime scene. After 33 years in prison Leopold was released....he lived an exemplary life until his death in 1971. One never really knows.
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Post by trubble on Jun 8, 2011 11:22:14 GMT -5
Leopold and Loeb were older. And came from very different motives. Such different cases.
I think, seeing as we are finding points of agreement, we should agree that a 10 or 11 year old is vastly different from a 17 or 18 year old. And then we should agree that the privileged lives and educations of Leopold and Loeb are direct opposites of the violent and underclass lives that Thompson and Venables experienced. They were out of school as much as in it.
As for the risk and dice throwing, well... no. No I don't think it's as risky as that. You have to see that 2 out of the 3 have not been in trouble and have made lives for themselves, and the one that wasn't was taken back into custody and no one was actually harmed by his release. Thus, the system could be declared a success.
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arizonavet
Journeyman
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Post by arizonavet on Jun 8, 2011 12:42:14 GMT -5
Leopold and Loeb were older. And came from very different motives. Such different cases. I think, seeing as we are finding points of agreement, we should agree that a 10 or 11 year old is vastly different from a 17 or 18 year old. And then we should agree that the privileged lives and educations of Leopold and Loeb are direct opposites of the violent and underclass lives that Thompson and Venables experienced. They were out of school as much as in it. As for the risk and dice throwing, well... no. No I don't think it's as risky as that. You have to see that 2 out of the 3 have not been in trouble and have made lives for themselves, and the one that wasn't was taken back into custody and no one was actually harmed by his release. Thus, the system could be declared a success. You sure missed one point I was making for YOUR side... Child murderer Leopold was released and did no harm..... We have no reason to believe that if Leob hadn't been murdered, he might have done the same. Now for the "risk", or "throwing the dice"..... How many mathmatical possibilities do dice have? Far more than 2 or 3...right? Hypothetical case only... Say you knew that Venables had been moved in next door to your family....and there was "only" 1 out of 3 chances that he still found children sexually attractive and still in a 'killin mood. This is exactally the position several citizens are being subjected to every day..... they just don't know it. The judges that think this is a cool idea should demand that the child murderers be moved into THEIR neighborhood. You can bet your bottom dollar....that isn't happening.
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