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Tai Chi
Nov 3, 2015 18:14:11 GMT -5
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Post by Scottish Lassie on Nov 3, 2015 18:14:11 GMT -5
Hi Men an tol, I don't really know how to reply. My experiences when confronted was in the past. As I now have seemingly mastered my feelings which to me is caused through the vice of rage. Once the vices are mastered, you are not adversely affected by anything, so can it be a confrontational situation?
I am a spiritual person, and to be spiritual you have to be humble. Yet in relating my experiences I am thought to be dogmatic, pompous and anything else that a person likes to think up. The whole point is, that I would not be given these experiences if I were not indeed humble.
As I said before, when you follow the spiritual path of ECKANKAR, the vices drop away one by one as you progress along that spiritual path. I am only a 4th Initiate so still have some way to go yet, in order to reach my goal of God realisation. That is when you know all, nothing is hidden from you. Everything will be revealed.
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Tai Chi
Nov 3, 2015 19:20:05 GMT -5
Post by men an tol on Nov 3, 2015 19:20:05 GMT -5
Life is full of challenges and how we handle them defines our enjoyment of life. Stress from economic problems, from illness and accidents, striving to reach goals, all are part of life and we all know those who have allowed these things to have taken over their life.
There are many paths to handle that stress and Tai Chi is one such path. While Tai Chi is rooted n the martial arts, it is also a practical living philosophy that helps people handle the stress of life. Some people claim health improvements when combined with the practice of Qigong.
There are other such practices of physical exercise combined with meditation such as Yoga. Some have confused these practices with religious philosophies, but that is not the case as those without religious founding can practice these processes as successfully as anyone.
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Post by men an tol on Nov 3, 2015 19:56:32 GMT -5
Hi Men an tol, I don't really know how to reply. My experiences when confronted was in the past. As I now have seemingly mastered my feelings which to me is caused through the vice of rage. Once the vices are mastered, you are not adversely affected by anything, so can it be a confrontational situation? I am a spiritual person, and to be spiritual you have to be humble. Yet in relating my experiences I am thought to be dogmatic, pompous and anything else that a person likes to think up. The whole point is, that I would not be given these experiences if I were not indeed humble. As I said before, when you follow the spiritual path of ECKANKAR, the vices drop away one by one as you progress along that spiritual path. I am only a 4th Initiate so still have some way to go yet, in order to reach my goal of God realisation. That is when you know all, nothing is hidden from you. Everything will be revealed. Scottish Lassie, I believe that most here accept that you believe what you relate. Even so, they (such as myself) do not necessarily believe what is related as there is no proof of your beliefs in the temporal world. Even so, as I have said in the past, go ahead and be committed to your beliefs. All I can say is that for you to expect non believers to believe the details of your assertions isn't realistic. However, I personally believe that you have no choice (as a believer) but to accept what you have asserted as your experiences and that because of that belief expert others to also believe. As your belief is important to you (very important) much of what you say will be centered around that belief. Others (non believers) will not have that intensity and will be more focused on things within the temporal world. This reality should be obvious to you and to the degree that it isn't is one explanation why there is this 'failure to communicate'. I also suggest that part of the problem is that you build a barrier with your beliefs and those who are non believers, and you do so by taking the position that they cannot understand since they haven't had your experiences of soul travel. Given that we do not have your faith, we who are the non believers can understand quite well to the other elements (non faith elements) as we have other sources of understanding. And your beliefs are not unique with ECKANKAR as others have had similar beliefs and some from quite different perspectives. That you say that you are a 'spiritual' person is great, but being spiritual is not unique to being a member of ECKANKAR, so there are many others who are spiritual and most of them are not, never have been and will never be, members of ECKANKAR.
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Tai Chi
Nov 4, 2015 3:00:53 GMT -5
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Post by Scottish Lassie on Nov 4, 2015 3:00:53 GMT -5
Hi Men an tol, We still seem to be at odds. The people who are spiritually inclined are the ones who are given spiritual experiences. Spirituality cannot be faked, that is definitely impossible. If a person is really spiritual then they will be allowed to see into the true spiritual realms.
Not at any time have I tried to convince anyone, or expected them to become a member of ECKANKAR. I do however expect them to believe that I am not lying as to the veracity of my experiences. I am sure I have mentioned this a few times but it seems to have been ignored.
You are right about me just having touched on Tai Chi. I just attended a few classes, perhaps for only one term. Things come up in your day to day life that have to be attended to, and sometimes even though you are enjoying what you are involved in, it falls by the wayside. Responsibilities will always come first that is a must!!!
I was even attending the University of a 3rd kind in my later years. I was learning French, German, Spanish and Italian. I really was enjoying that, but I was falling behind in my day to day duties, so once again I had to give it up. I was unable to spend the time going out each day and still keep up with my responsibilites.
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Post by mouse on Nov 4, 2015 5:30:29 GMT -5
""""The people who are spiritually inclined are the ones who are given spiritual experiences. Spirituality cannot be faked, that is definitely impossible. If a person is really spiritual then they will be allowed to see into the true spiritual realms.
Not at any time have I tried to convince anyone, or expected them to become a member of ECKANKAR. I do however expect them to believe that I am not lying as to the veracity of my experiences. I am sure I have mentioned this a few times but it seems to have been ignored."""
NOBODY is saying your LYING not at all
....no body could doubt your firm beliefes are anything but honest on your part afterall nobody says those who believe in God are lying....because firm held beliefes are NOT LIES..they are beliefes
spiritual experiences come in many forms and many guises and it has nothing to do with if that person is spiritual in any recognised way..afterall how does one recognise a spiritual person...its an impossibility..except where people base their lives around that spirituality very outwardly and openly spirituality can come to any human being...all it needs is the right trigger
but its irrational to expect others to ACEPT an argument based on YOUR personal EXPERIENCES which cannot obviously be verified i would imagine most normal people have some tale to tell which cannot be explained i have two..but i don't consider either as anything other than some thing i cannot explain..i don't promote them as a basis for argument to support an idea...i would also imagine most people have an experience of spirituality but again they wouldn't use them to support an arguement
we know there are people..writings..things/happenings from right across the planet and from very different eras which cannot be explained.... we also know the senses can be mistaken..
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Post by men an tol on Nov 4, 2015 9:44:54 GMT -5
Hi Men an tol, We still seem to be at odds. The people who are spiritually inclined are the ones who are given spiritual experiences. Spirituality cannot be faked, that is definitely impossible. If a person is really spiritual then they will be allowed to see into the true spiritual realms. Not at any time have I tried to convince anyone, or expected them to become a member of ECKANKAR. I do however expect them to believe that I am not lying as to the veracity of my experiences. I am sure I have mentioned this a few times but it seems to have been ignored. You are right about me just having touched on Tai Chi. I just attended a few classes, perhaps for only one term. Things come up in your day to day life that have to be attended to, and sometimes even though you are enjoying what you are involved in, it falls by the wayside. Responsibilities will always come first that is a must!!! I was even attending the University of a 3rd kind in my later years. I was learning French, German, Spanish and Italian. I really was enjoying that, but I was falling behind in my day to day duties, so once again I had to give it up. I was unable to spend the time going out each day and still keep up with my responsibilites. Scottish Lassie stated, “ . . . Hi Men an tol, We still seem to be at odds. The people who are spiritually inclined are the ones who are given spiritual experiences. Spirituality cannot be faked, that is definitely impossible. If a person is really spiritual then they will be allowed to see into the true spiritual realms. . . “ I agree, we are at odds. Taking just your position of a person being spiritual. There are those who have a spiritual nature and yet do not have the 'spiritual' experiences you describe. And yet, they are no less spiritual than you describe yourself as being. I must admit that it seems to me that you seem to be putting yourself in the position of defining what is spiritual and what is not spiritual and I would like to think that I am wrong in such an assumption. No one I am aware of here has sugg3ested that anyone is a faking being spiritual, your comment is the first I've seen with such a suggestion.
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Tai Chi
Nov 7, 2015 1:43:31 GMT -5
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Post by Scottish Lassie on Nov 7, 2015 1:43:31 GMT -5
Well now you have heard everything!!! There are various degrees of spirituality, if there wasn't I would know everything by now. I happen to be a seeker, not everybody is. They are quite happy to stay in the same belief for all of their days on this earth and that's as far as they go.They don't seek any further.
Most religious people just have faith and have nothing to prove that there is such a thing as spiritual dimensions. They take it on trust, unseen. I have experiences where I visit these dimensions and it proves to me that they exist, so will not be swayed from that belief, regardless of what anyone else might think.
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Post by men an tol on Nov 7, 2015 2:14:36 GMT -5
As I have stated in the past Scottish Lassie, have your belief, do all that your belief tells you to do or whatever makes you happy. Others accept (as far as I am aware) your believing in your beliefs. At the same time to expect others to accept your experiences as true is another matter.
Others have other approaches which are every bit as real to them as your beliefs are to you. Some of us have (may have) found Rene Descartes works more than a little interesting as he is well known with the question, “How do we know that there is reality outside our own minds?” So too with the works of Thomas Kuhn (his 1962 book “The Structure of Scientific Revolutions” is a truly foundational effort) and his description of the Scientific Paradigm.
The point is that there are others, many others, who have had experiences that are quite different from what you relate. More over the works of those such as Rene Descartes and Thomas Kuhn (along with many others) can actually be touched and tested by anyone in the temporal world. Personally I find these far more satisfying and meaningful (to me) than any description of mystical experiences which cannot be demonstrated to others.
For you there is apparently this belief in various degrees of spirituality and if that works for you, go for it. However, there are others who have a different view and that is that some people are spiritual, no degree, not having to 'earn' some level of mystic knowledge, they are simply spiritual.
This can be achieved in many ways and through many disciplines and there is no absolute requirement of being religious to reach such a position, not does being religious exclude anyone. But let me make the point again, there is no going through levels of some defined learning schedule to meet some set of requirements, a person can reach a level of spirituality without such requirements, religious or not. Here in this thread I hope it becomes apparent that Tai Chi is one such discipline that such a spiritual perspective can be reached and there is no religion involved at all. It is simply the practicing of physical and mental exercises, no prayers, no visions, only the turning into harmony the body and the mind.
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Tai Chi
Nov 7, 2015 11:14:56 GMT -5
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Post by Scottish Lassie on Nov 7, 2015 11:14:56 GMT -5
Hi Men an tol, Tai Chi is the practice that brings harmony to the mind and body which is all to do with the physical being, but nothing to do with spirituality
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Tai Chi
Nov 7, 2015 11:38:28 GMT -5
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Post by Scottish Lassie on Nov 7, 2015 11:38:28 GMT -5
Hi Mouse, in being a spiritual person, I do not take hallucinatory drugs, I am not sitting in total darkness either or anything else that you would like to touch on that might be responsible for what I experience.
These things happen to me sometimes when I am wide awake and in contemplation, so I am well aware of what is happening. If a person is unable to enter the spiritual realms, it means that they are not yet ready to have that experience. Which proves that there are different levels of spirituality, without a doubt!!!
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Post by men an tol on Nov 7, 2015 13:21:36 GMT -5
Hi Men an tol, Tai Chi is the practice that brings harmony to the mind and body which is all to do with the physical being, but nothing to do with spirituality Yes Scottish Lassie Tai Chi (and Qi Gong) is a process that when practice as a daily part of living will bring harmony and balance between mind and body for the individual, I've explained that to you in the past. However, your assertion (statement?) that it has “ . . . nothing to do with spirituality . . . “ is true only within the very narrow sense that you define Spirituality within your belief system. Tai Chi and Qi Gong are often called 'moving meditation' but does not require the practitioner to be religious, nor does it bar the religious person from such practice. Those who are religious who practice it have achieved a meditative state which results in a spirituality and, surprisingly to some, this has also occurred to the non-religious. For some who practice these 'exercises' they believe that this has enhanced their Chi or Qi (the Taoist universal energy) moving in their body channels referred to as meridians and, has enhanced their health. Here Tai Chi is rooted (in part) in Taoism which has the belief that strengthening and reinforcing one’s inner chi will bring good health and long life as well as spiritual benefits. As I'm sure that you are aware, there is no supreme God or Creator in Taoism; all originated from the Tao and this is the source of the belief of yin and yang, which also can be part of the practice of balance and harmony of Tai Chi and Qi Gong. From this practice spirituality emanates. Although these exercises were not practiced by Jiddu Krishnamurti, his non-religious use of the term "meditation" meant something entirely different from the practice of any system or method to control the mind, or to consciously achieve a specific goal or state as he stated: "Man, in order to escape his conflicts, has invented many forms of meditation. These have been based on desire, will, and the urge for achievement, and imply conflict and a struggle to arrive. This conscious, deliberate striving is always within the limits of a conditioned mind, and in this there is no freedom. All 'effort' to meditate is the denial of meditation. Meditation is the ending of thought. It is only then that there is a different dimension which is beyond time." That is, relative to the practice of Tai Chi meditation resulted as choiceless awareness in the present: ''When you learn about yourself, watch yourself, watch the way you walk, how you eat, what you say, the gossip, the hate, the jealousy - if you are aware of all that in yourself, without any choice, that is part of meditation." From this Spirituality can arise and may refer to almost any kind of meaningful activity, personal growth, or blissful experience. No, to practice Tai Chi or Qi Gong you do not have to believe or disbelieve in gods, spirits, or an afterlife. There are large numbers of practitioners of all religions. Yet many consider the practice of Tai Chi or Qi Gong to be a spiritual practice. The line between art and spirituality is often very thin. Techniques of art can stimulate creative forces and refine them. If that intensity is directed toward inner revelation, rather than external accomplishment, the training that the art provides may bridge the gap between the secular and the spiritual making the spiritual a normal part of the temporal world. If so, Tai Chi or Qi Gong becomes a tool for spiritual awakening. My point is Scottish Lassie (again) practice and believe as you wish, but expecting others to accept your stated experiences as true is not realistic, nor is the using of what you define and use within your beliefs (such as what is spirituality) and applying that to others being realistic. Being Spiritual comes from many sources and encompasses many worlds, and most of us would not define it in the narrow sense that you use, nor does one have to be religious to understand these particular issues.
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Tai Chi
Nov 7, 2015 14:57:04 GMT -5
Post by annaj26 on Nov 7, 2015 14:57:04 GMT -5
Men an tol sez ... Being Spiritual comes from many sources and encompasses many worlds, and most of us would not define it in the narrow sense that you use, nor does one have to be religious to understand these particular issues.
True.
Spirituality can be something as simple as meditation. Spirituality is not the same as religion.
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Tai Chi
Nov 7, 2015 15:49:20 GMT -5
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Post by Scottish Lassie on Nov 7, 2015 15:49:20 GMT -5
Hi Men an tol, You have completely lost me, you are only talking about the state of the body and mind not of Soul. It is Soul that is spiritual and Agnostics and Atheists do not recognize that there is such a thing as Soul.
It is admirable that conditioning the body and mind by these practices leads to the attainment of good health, but how can that be spiritual? The two are completely different. Soul is a unit of awareness that continues on after the physical body rots in the ground and is no more. How can you possibly equate that with Soul?
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Post by Dex on Nov 7, 2015 17:32:41 GMT -5
SL, I don't mean to be contrary but it seems to me you have tunnel vision. You see everything through the point of view of your one little church group and don't stop to realize there are a lot of ways to look at things. None of them wrong necessarily but just different.
What is Spirituality? This is the answer Goggle gave me and I think it's about right. You need to broaden your outlook.
Spirituality is a broad concept with room for many perspectives. In general, it includes a sense of connection to something bigger than ourselves, and it typically involves a search for meaning in life. As such, it is a universal human experience—something that touches us all.
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Tai Chi
Nov 7, 2015 17:55:00 GMT -5
Post by men an tol on Nov 7, 2015 17:55:00 GMT -5
Hi Men an tol, You have completely lost me, you are only talking about the state of the body and mind not of Soul. It is Soul that is spiritual and Agnostics and Atheists do not recognize that there is such a thing as Soul. It is admirable that conditioning the body and mind by these practices leads to the attainment of good health, but how can that be spiritual? The two are completely different. Soul is a unit of awareness that continues on after the physical body rots in the ground and is no more. How can you possibly equate that with Soul? Scottish Lassie, you're right I didn't mention the soul and that is because we were discussing spirituality. Apparently you now want the discussion to also include discussion of soul and you seem to equate spirituality only with soul. It seems that you believe that spirituality cannot exist without a soul, or, at least you seem to believe some version of that within your religion. As I have stated, believe as you think is best for you, but I suggest that applying your belief to the beliefs of others as an absolute is neither correct nor beneficial. Certainly if your belief is the dominate one then spirituality and soul are tied together. However, some religions, certainly some philosophies, can accept the existence of spirituality without connection to and even the existence of a soul. I could be mistaken but it seems that you want to reject these other beliefs leaving only your belief on the field. I might also suggest that your comment, “ . . . Agnostics and Atheists do not recognize that there is such a thing as Soul. . . “ is a short hand misstatement of the positions of Agnostics and Atheists and they weren't part of the discussion any way. However, Agnostics claim either that it is not possible to have absolute or certain knowledge of God or gods. Atheists believe there is no evidence of a God. You will notice that there is no mention of soul.
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