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Post by iamjumbo on Jul 12, 2011 9:34:39 GMT -5
Thank you. I'll take a good look. Somehow, I find that counter-intuitive. Maybe not today, but maybe 30 years ago (and certainly prior to that when black people had lower status and less civil rights than white people) I think racism would have played quite a large part in many cases. Don't you?? And a history of it might mean some of that attitude is still floating around, even at a sub-conscious level. Possibly?? of course, prior to 1976, more blacks WERE executed than white. of course, that has absolutely NOTHING to do with since 1976. the areas where more blacks were executed than whites was in the south, where far more whites are now executed. that simple fact totally rebuts the notion that the racism of those days is still floating around now
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Post by iamjumbo on Jul 12, 2011 9:41:41 GMT -5
If the death penalty is used right - to punish murder - then it's neither racist nor arbitrary. it happens often enough that people are found not to have committed crimes after they have been found 'guilty' - sometimes years later with someones life having been wasted unecessarily incarcerated. i'm afraid i don't have faith in the justice system, where it mostly depends on how good ones brief is, as to the verdict. too many cockups occur and one execution for a crime not committed it one too many. it is a barbaric and inhuman system that puts people to death and it should be abolished. no hon, as i have said before, to oppose the death penalty means nothing except you believe the life of an individual who has voluntarily chosen to rape and murder a five year old child is of equal value to that child's life. that is an untenable position on its face. the simple FACT is that there has not been a single, nada, zip, zilch, none, factually innocent individual executed in the u.s. since 1976. what occurred before then has no relevance to anything whatsoever. the fact that there have been 17 dna exonnerations from death row since 1983 conclusively PROVES that no innocent could EVER be executed in the future.
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Post by iamjumbo on Jul 12, 2011 9:47:54 GMT -5
But its not being used as a tool to put a stop to it. I don't see why not. In fact, I think that's exactly what the article is doing. The debate about whether a DP is inherently barbaric or not is clearly divisive and boils down to opinion, but no one should sanction arbitrary or racist execution - forgive the pun - of capital punishment. Even the most pro-DP advocate wouldn't want that. If you prove that's how it works and that's how it always has worked, then you can make a case for stopping it altogether. -------------- Lin, You say the anti-DP lobby exaggerates the innocent people sentenced unjustly to death.... Surely one innocent person is gruesome enough? Remember the women jailed (on Roy Meadow's bad testimony) for murdering their children? Aren't you glad that the UK didn't have the DP when you think of them? I see from Fret's link that there's a film just released about Cameron Todd Willingham. Executed in 2004, his judgment of guilty was declared ''unsustainable'' in 2009: Trial by Fire ~ Did Texas execute an innocent man? --by David Grann at the New Yorker. He pleaded innocence at every single stage. Turns out that he may have been telling the truth. And this isn't a one off, is it. It's utterly immoral to write these cases off as ''casualties of war''. I mean... killing innocent people in the name of the battle against killing innocent people... it's actually ludicrous. And, yes, war is barbaric. antis like to trot out willingham, and it is as abjectly stupid as their imbecility with roger coleman. there is not the slightest doubt that willingham was guilty of murdering his kids. the ONLY thing these moronic nutjobs have is the fact that it has been discovered that a few indicators previously thought to be only present in arson fires, can sometimes be found in normal fires. that in NO way creates an iota of doubt as to willingham's guilt. in the first place, it is his actions before, during, and after the fire that conclusively PROVE beyond all doubt that he was guilty. the fact that he had tried to murder the one kid before it was born, the fact that he just watched his kids burn, and that after the fire, instead of having ANY concern about the kids, all he cared about was his dartboard, combined with the overwhelming mountain of other evidence, that leaves NO doubt whatsoever as to his guilt, in the mind of anyone with an iq above forty and the ability to use it
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Post by iamjumbo on Jul 12, 2011 9:49:16 GMT -5
"If the death penalty is used right - to punish murder - then it's neither racist nor arbitrary." Just barbaric sorry ol' chap, saying it is barbaric a ZILLION times won't change the irrefutable fact that its NOT barbaric you have every right to be wrong though, so, carry on
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Post by iamjumbo on Jul 12, 2011 10:31:34 GMT -5
Pipsqueak, I like you very much. I think you're one of the most intelligent people on this board and I always read your posts with interest. You think execution is barbaric? OK, what about war? Or eating meat? Or torture? Or self-defence? Or, if it comes to that, life in prison? I visit prisoners regulary and I've been a firm advocate of prison reform and inmate's rights for years, as well as of alternatives to prison. A friend of mine is a cop in the US and he told me a few weeks ago that "prison doesn't work." He wants community punishments rather than prison though, like me, he supports the death penalty for murder. As for innocence, antis exaggerate the numbers of innocent people as much as pros exaggerate deterrence. Do you think Christa Pike, Richard Ramirez, Brittany Holberg, Peter Sutcliffe, Beverley Allitt, Ian Brady or Ian HUntley (to take a few names at random) are innocent? No one believes in their innocence - why not just execute them rather than waste money in locking them up for ever? Who speaks for the victims? thank you - it's kind of you to say that Lin. i didn't know whether you actually wanted me to answer your questions here, or ponder them. but i take your point, and the issues you raised highlight my own flawed thinking. they are powerful thought provoking and difficult to answer questions that make me aware of my own hypocrisy and double standards. the meat issue does not sit comfortably with me at all. i think there is a huge difference between cold blooded state sanctioned killling and the crimes individual human beings commit during a life time. suriving this world is all some individuals can barely do and not falling foul of our fellow man and the system is for some well nigh impossible. not through deliberate intention but often because 'living' is hard. many people wind up in prison not because they are heartless killers or greedy, but for all sorts of situations and reasons that have led them there. and a good proportion i'd say fall foul of the system because of mental health problems and/or abject poverty. while i hardly know anything about the killers you mention or any killers for that matter, the likes of Barry George who was accused of murdering Jill Dando remind me just how wrong the system can get it. Aileen Wournos too, i despair that she was murdered by the state - i wonder if you saw the Nicholas Broomfield coverage on her. it left me thinking what a sad inhuman travesty of justice it was to put her to death. there are no doubt bad bastards whose characters are completely reformed and remorseful for the crimes they've committed. surely they deserve compassion.. granted they have denied it to their victims but as a society perhaps we need to offer that chance. re your friend who is in the police who says prison doesn't work. i can believe that but perhaps its the system that is not geared to work. i don't see society changing drastically enough to reform an inadequate and heavily flawed system, unfortunately and individuals leave prison ill equipped to deal with the everyday. inevitably they end up back inside. backup and safety nets designed to help people stay on the straight and narrow once they are out often to not work. in theory they do but not in practise. i sense your passion and that your heart is in a good place, Lin. and clearly you perform a valuable role within the prison system. . Aileen Wournos too, i despair that she was murdered by the state - i wonder if you saw the Nicholas Broomfield coverage on her. it left me thinking what a sad inhuman travesty of justice it was to put her to death. there are no doubt bad bastards whose characters are completely reformed and remorseful for the crimes they've committed. surely they deserve compassion.. granted they have denied it to their victims but as a society perhaps we need to offer that chance. no hon, there can be no forgiveness for murder on this earth. if god chooses to issue it, that is another story, but no human has a right to forgive murder in this life. hell, wourmos murdered seven guys. how the hell could her execution possibly not be totally justified? she murdered them in cold blood, premeditating each one. she was as worthless as it can get. there is NO societal cause of crime, period. poverty certainly isn't any excuse for crime. there is not a single individual in the ghetto that is any poorer than the white kid in appalachia, but, you don't see the crime rate there as high as in harlem. poverty is a non issue. lack of education is also not a cause of crime. everyone who wants to, and works at it, can get an education. the ONLY cause of crime is the inherent worthlessness of the individual. no other reason
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Post by fretslider on Jul 12, 2011 10:33:10 GMT -5
"If the death penalty is used right - to punish murder - then it's neither racist nor arbitrary." Just barbaric sorry ol' chap, saying it is barbaric a ZILLION times won't change the irrefutable fact that its NOT barbaric you have every right to be wrong though, so, carry on Jumbo, you have every right to remain in the neolithic age, but isn't it time you moved on?
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Post by fretslider on Jul 12, 2011 11:20:11 GMT -5
"no forgiveness"
Is that right, jumbo?
I take it I'm right in assuming you 'believe'
For sins committed after baptism, a different sacrament is needed. It has been called penance, confession, and reconciliation, each word emphasizing one of its aspects.
During his life, Christ forgave sins, as in the case of the woman caught in adultery (John 8:1–11) and the woman who anointed his feet (Luke 7:48). He exercised this power in his human capacity as the Messiah or Son of man, telling us, "the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (Matt. 9:6), which is why the Gospel writer himself explains that God "had given such authority to men" (Matt. 9:8).
So which version of the Bible are you reading?
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Post by iamjumbo on Jul 12, 2011 13:22:22 GMT -5
sorry ol' chap, saying it is barbaric a ZILLION times won't change the irrefutable fact that its NOT barbaric you have every right to be wrong though, so, carry on Jumbo, you have every right to remain in the neolithic age, but isn't it time you moved on? no thank you. i choose to remain civilized. i prefer to not live where life is considered so cheap. it is your perogative if you choose to do so, but as for me, no way jose
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Post by iamjumbo on Jul 12, 2011 13:25:45 GMT -5
"no forgiveness" Is that right, jumbo? I take it I'm right in assuming you 'believe' For sins committed after baptism, a different sacrament is needed. It has been called penance, confession, and reconciliation, each word emphasizing one of its aspects. During his life, Christ forgave sins, as in the case of the woman caught in adultery (John 8:1–11) and the woman who anointed his feet (Luke 7:48). He exercised this power in his human capacity as the Messiah or Son of man, telling us, "the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (Matt. 9:6), which is why the Gospel writer himself explains that God "had given such authority to men" (Matt. 9:8). So which version of the Bible are you reading? you don't want to go there lad, but you did. christ forgave the thief on the cross of his sins, but he didn't relieve him of his proper punishment, did he? actually, forgiveness is not the word i wanted, but i just can't think of the one that i usually use in that sentence. nonetheless, you cannot forgive, as in pardon, murder.
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Post by biglin on Jul 12, 2011 18:45:24 GMT -5
Thank you - it's kind of you to say that Lin.
I meant every word I said.
i didn't know whether you actually wanted me to answer your questions here, or ponder them. but i take your point, and the issues you raised highlight my own flawed thinking. they are powerful thought provoking and difficult to answer questions that make me aware of my own hypocrisy and double standards. the meat issue does not sit comfortably with me at all.
Pipsqueak, nobody HAS to respond to anything. I just enjoy your posts and hope you do mine. Without disagreement what's the point of having a message board?
i think there is a huge difference between cold blooded state sanctioned killling and the crimes individual human beings commit during a life time.
I don't accept that execution IS murder any more than I look on a soldier who kills an enemy or a pilot who bombs a city as a murderer.
suriving this world is all some individuals can barely do and not falling foul of our fellow man and the system is for some well nigh impossible. not through deliberate intention but often because 'living' is hard. many people wind up in prison not because they are heartless killers or greedy, but for all sorts of situations and reasons that have led them there. and a good proportion i'd say fall foul of the system because of mental health problems and/or abject poverty.
I agree absolutely - but this thread IS about the death penalty.
while i hardly know anything about the killers you mention or any killers for that matter, the likes of Barry George who was accused of murdering Jill Dando remind me just how wrong the system can get it.
Richard Ramirez - the "Night Stalker" was a vicious serial killer who freely ADMITS that he murdered a number of women.
Ian Brady was the other half to Myra Hindley of the "Moors Murderers" and they murdered a number of children in the 1960s.
Ian Huntley murdered two girls in Cambridge a few years ago.
Christa Pike - well, she's a thug in herself! Go Google her - she really is one of the most despicable killers of all time.
Aileen Wournos too, i despair that she was murdered by the state - i wonder if you saw the Nicholas Broomfield coverage on her. it left me thinking what a sad inhuman travesty of justice it was to put her to death.
Aileen Wournos was NOT "murdered" by the state.
SHE was a murderer.
I'm prepared to just about believe that her first two killings might have been in self-defence but then she became a premeditated, cold-blooded, serial killer.
IMO death was the only proportionate punishment for her crimes.
there are no doubt bad bastards whose characters are completely reformed and remorseful for the crimes they've committed. surely they deserve compassion.. granted they have denied it to their victims but as a society perhaps we need to offer that chance.
When the Israelis confronted Eichmann with his crimes he finally realised what he'd done. They still executed him - the ONLY person ever to be executed in Israel.
I've taken a lot of interest in Brittany Holberg because she is a real example of someone who was a thoroughly bad apple before she committed murder.
I wrote a poem about her - I've written quite a few poems about crime, prison and so on - and it's been praised on a number of sites I belong too, including Prison Talk Online (yes, I belong to that too, AND they've allowed me to post a couple of pro-death penalty messages as well even though they're so overwhelmingly pro-inmate that at times they're naive, gullible and a bit tacky.
re your friend who is in the police who says prison doesn't work. i can believe that but perhaps its the system that is not geared to work. i don't see society changing drastically enough to reform an inadequate and heavily flawed system, unfortunately and individuals leave prison ill equipped to deal with the everyday. inevitably they end up back inside. backup and safety nets designed to help people stay on the straight and narrow once they are out often to not work. in theory they do but not in practise.
My friend Tony is an American cop and he honestly believes, after 20 years experience on the force, that prison doesn't work. For murder he supports the death penalty; for most other crimes he believes we need community service punishments.
i sense your passion and that your heart is in a good place, Lin. and clearly you perform a valuable role within the prison system.
I have been a passionate advocate of prison reform, alternatives to custody and inmate rights from the age of 18. Funnily enough I used to be an anti until my lesbian lover was murdered when I was not quite 16. That profoundly changed my views on things.
I always love passion, sincerity, compassion, tolerance, and a willingness to listen and maybe even learn from people with ideas you don't necessarily agree with.
Do you know I belong to the Canadian Coalition against the Death Penalty, the Campaign to End All State Executions and Prison Talk Online? OK, I'm one of the few pros on those sites but the mere fact they tolerate me (quite a few ANTIS have been banned from all three) and that I've been "thanked" for my posts by more members on PTO than any other of the (tiny handful, admittedly) of pros who belong to it.
I'm not some missionary trying to convert people to my own ideas.
I just speak from the heart and with me what you see is what you get.
I say what I mean and I mean what I say and I hate dishonesty, insincerity and backstabbing.
So, I think, do you.
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Erasmus
Moderatorz
Deep Thought Mod
"We do not take prisoners - we liberate them" - http://www.aeonbytegnosticradio.com
Posts: 2,489
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Post by Erasmus on Jul 12, 2011 21:45:18 GMT -5
no thank you. i choose to remain civilized. i prefer to not live where life is considered so cheap. it is your perogative if you choose to do so, but as for me, no way jose If it was good enough for Mohammed and Alfred the Great and Vikings to prefer compensation to retaliatory murder, just what do you call Civilized that is more primitive than them?
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Post by fretslider on Jul 13, 2011 3:39:46 GMT -5
"no forgiveness" Is that right, jumbo? I take it I'm right in assuming you 'believe' For sins committed after baptism, a different sacrament is needed. It has been called penance, confession, and reconciliation, each word emphasizing one of its aspects. During his life, Christ forgave sins, as in the case of the woman caught in adultery (John 8:1–11) and the woman who anointed his feet (Luke 7:48). He exercised this power in his human capacity as the Messiah or Son of man, telling us, "the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (Matt. 9:6), which is why the Gospel writer himself explains that God "had given such authority to men" (Matt. 9:8). So which version of the Bible are you reading? you don't want to go there lad, but you did. christ forgave the thief on the cross of his sins, but he didn't relieve him of his proper punishment, did he? actually, forgiveness is not the word i wanted, but i just can't think of the one that i usually use in that sentence. nonetheless, you cannot forgive, as in pardon, murder. Its all, if you'll forgive the phrase, mumbo-jumbo. But its hard to release someone if you're nailed to a cross, so forgiveness will have to do. Locking people up for life for murder without parole isn't what you might call a pat on the head. Perhaps you're thinking along the lines of... Vengeance Revenge Retribution Etc
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Post by fretslider on Jul 13, 2011 3:43:07 GMT -5
Jumbo, you have every right to remain in the neolithic age, but isn't it time you moved on? no thank you. i choose to remain civilized. i prefer to not live where life is considered so cheap. it is your perogative if you choose to do so, but as for me, no way jose Well, I guess its civilised for 2000BC, just as Stonehenge was being built, but today in the 21st century...... Nah.
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Post by iamjumbo on Jul 13, 2011 7:07:13 GMT -5
Thank you - it's kind of you to say that Lin.
I meant every word I said. i didn't know whether you actually wanted me to answer your questions here, or ponder them. but i take your point, and the issues you raised highlight my own flawed thinking. they are powerful thought provoking and difficult to answer questions that make me aware of my own hypocrisy and double standards. the meat issue does not sit comfortably with me at all.Pipsqueak, nobody HAS to respond to anything. I just enjoy your posts and hope you do mine. Without disagreement what's the point of having a message board? i think there is a huge difference between cold blooded state sanctioned killling and the crimes individual human beings commit during a life time.I don't accept that execution IS murder any more than I look on a soldier who kills an enemy or a pilot who bombs a city as a murderer.
suriving this world is all some individuals can barely do and not falling foul of our fellow man and the system is for some well nigh impossible. not through deliberate intention but often because 'living' is hard. many people wind up in prison not because they are heartless killers or greedy, but for all sorts of situations and reasons that have led them there. and a good proportion i'd say fall foul of the system because of mental health problems and/or abject poverty.I agree absolutely - but this thread IS about the death penalty. while i hardly know anything about the killers you mention or any killers for that matter, the likes of Barry George who was accused of murdering Jill Dando remind me just how wrong the system can get it. Richard Ramirez - the "Night Stalker" was a vicious serial killer who freely ADMITS that he murdered a number of women. Ian Brady was the other half to Myra Hindley of the "Moors Murderers" and they murdered a number of children in the 1960s. Ian Huntley murdered two girls in Cambridge a few years ago. Christa Pike - well, she's a thug in herself! Go Google her - she really is one of the most despicable killers of all time. Aileen Wournos too, i despair that she was murdered by the state - i wonder if you saw the Nicholas Broomfield coverage on her. it left me thinking what a sad inhuman travesty of justice it was to put her to death.Aileen Wournos was NOT "murdered" by the state. SHE was a murderer. I'm prepared to just about believe that her first two killings might have been in self-defence but then she became a premeditated, cold-blooded, serial killer. IMO death was the only proportionate punishment for her crimes. there are no doubt bad bastards whose characters are completely reformed and remorseful for the crimes they've committed. surely they deserve compassion.. granted they have denied it to their victims but as a society perhaps we need to offer that chance.When the Israelis confronted Eichmann with his crimes he finally realised what he'd done. They still executed him - the ONLY person ever to be executed in Israel. I've taken a lot of interest in Brittany Holberg because she is a real example of someone who was a thoroughly bad apple before she committed murder. I wrote a poem about her - I've written quite a few poems about crime, prison and so on - and it's been praised on a number of sites I belong too, including Prison Talk Online (yes, I belong to that too, AND they've allowed me to post a couple of pro-death penalty messages as well even though they're so overwhelmingly pro-inmate that at times they're naive, gullible and a bit tacky. re your friend who is in the police who says prison doesn't work. i can believe that but perhaps its the system that is not geared to work. i don't see society changing drastically enough to reform an inadequate and heavily flawed system, unfortunately and individuals leave prison ill equipped to deal with the everyday. inevitably they end up back inside. backup and safety nets designed to help people stay on the straight and narrow once they are out often to not work. in theory they do but not in practise.My friend Tony is an American cop and he honestly believes, after 20 years experience on the force, that prison doesn't work. For murder he supports the death penalty; for most other crimes he believes we need community service punishments. i sense your passion and that your heart is in a good place, Lin. and clearly you perform a valuable role within the prison system.
I have been a passionate advocate of prison reform, alternatives to custody and inmate rights from the age of 18. Funnily enough I used to be an anti until my lesbian lover was murdered when I was not quite 16. That profoundly changed my views on things. I always love passion, sincerity, compassion, tolerance, and a willingness to listen and maybe even learn from people with ideas you don't necessarily agree with. Do you know I belong to the Canadian Coalition against the Death Penalty, the Campaign to End All State Executions and Prison Talk Online? OK, I'm one of the few pros on those sites but the mere fact they tolerate me (quite a few ANTIS have been banned from all three) and that I've been "thanked" for my posts by more members on PTO than any other of the (tiny handful, admittedly) of pros who belong to it. I'm not some missionary trying to convert people to my own ideas. I just speak from the heart and with me what you see is what you get. I say what I mean and I mean what I say and I hate dishonesty, insincerity and backstabbing. So, I think, do you. how is paul these days? i haven't been over to cease in about a year. it is always quite comical to see an anti running with the "execution is murder" lunacy. making such a patently false statement totally discredits EVERYTHING they say. obviously, by definition, there is NO way to link execution and murder. murder is ONLY the UNLAWFUL killing of another. how they come up with the lunatical idea that executions violate the murder statute is an hallucination that they only know
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Post by iamjumbo on Jul 13, 2011 7:10:50 GMT -5
no thank you. i choose to remain civilized. i prefer to not live where life is considered so cheap. it is your perogative if you choose to do so, but as for me, no way jose If it was good enough for Mohammed and Alfred the Great and Vikings to prefer compensation to retaliatory murder, just what do you call Civilized that is more primitive than them? quite simple my boy. it's the ability to comprehend the simple fact that life is sacrosanct, and the only one that has a right to choose to forfeit that right is you, which you do when you choose to violate someone else's right to life. nothing difficult to comprehend about such a simple REALITY
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