|
Post by biglin on Jul 10, 2011 17:34:12 GMT -5
If the death penalty is used right - to punish murder - then it's neither racist nor arbitrary. it happens often enough that people are found not to have committed crimes after they have been found 'guilty' - sometimes years later having someones life has been wasted unecessarily incarcerated. i'm afraid i don't have faith in the justice system where it mostly depends on how good onesr brief is. too many cockups occur and one execution for a crime not committed it one too many. it is a barbaric and inhuman to put people to death anyway and should be abolished. Pipsqueak, I like you very much. I think you're one of the most intelligent people on this board and I always read your posts with interest. You think execution is barbaric? OK, what about war? Or eating meat? Or torture? Or self-defence? Or, if it comes to that, life in prison? I visit prisoners regulary and I've been a firm advocate of prison reform and inmate's rights for years, as well as of alternatives to prison. A friend of mine is a cop in the US and he told me a few weeks ago that "prison doesn't work." He wants community punishments rather than prison though, like me, he supports the death penalty for murder. As for innocence, antis exaggerate the numbers of innocent people as much as pros exaggerate deterrence. Do you think Christa Pike, Richard Ramirez, Brittany Holberg, Peter Sutcliffe, Beverley Allitt, Ian Brady or Ian HUntley (to take a few names at random) are innocent? No one believes in their innocence - why not just execute them rather than waste money in locking them up for ever? Who speaks for the victims?
|
|
|
Post by mouse on Jul 11, 2011 2:23:39 GMT -5
in prisoning people most certainly does work in one way..it takes them out of the public domain ... would work even better if we had a half decent prison service and not a namby pamby ""its not their fsault"" attitude prison is oddly enough suposed to be punishment...not a baby sitting or rehabilitation service
|
|
|
Post by trubble on Jul 11, 2011 4:07:33 GMT -5
If the death penalty is used right - to punish murder - then it's neither racist nor arbitrary. That's not a logical conclusion. If it is being used in an arbitrary and racist manner (as is alleged in the article and on the site in Jumbo's link) then it is not being used right.
|
|
|
Post by trubble on Jul 11, 2011 4:30:33 GMT -5
Why not use its ''arbitrary'' and ''racist'' nature as an argument/tool to put a stop to it? But its not being used as a tool to put a stop to it. I don't see why not. In fact, I think that's exactly what the article is doing. The debate about whether a DP is inherently barbaric or not is clearly divisive and boils down to opinion, but no one should sanction arbitrary or racist execution - forgive the pun - of capital punishment. Even the most pro-DP advocate wouldn't want that. If you prove that's how it works and that's how it always has worked, then you can make a case for stopping it altogether. -------------- Lin, You say the anti-DP lobby exaggerates the innocent people sentenced unjustly to death.... Surely one innocent person is gruesome enough? Remember the women jailed (on Roy Meadow's bad testimony) for murdering their children? Aren't you glad that the UK didn't have the DP when you think of them? I see from Fret's link that there's a film just released about Cameron Todd Willingham. Executed in 2004, his judgment of guilty was declared ''unsustainable'' in 2009: Trial by Fire ~ Did Texas execute an innocent man? --by David Grann at the New Yorker. He pleaded innocence at every single stage. Turns out that he may have been telling the truth. And this isn't a one off, is it. It's utterly immoral to write these cases off as ''casualties of war''. I mean... killing innocent people in the name of the battle against killing innocent people... it's actually ludicrous. And, yes, war is barbaric.
|
|
|
Post by fretslider on Jul 11, 2011 4:50:56 GMT -5
"If the death penalty is used right - to punish murder - then it's neither racist nor arbitrary."
Just barbaric
|
|
|
Post by trubble on Jul 11, 2011 6:12:49 GMT -5
in prisoning people most certainly does work in one way..it takes them out of the public domain ... would work even better if we had a half decent prison service and not a namby pamby ""its not their fsault"" attitude prison is oddly enough suposed to be punishment...not a baby sitting or rehabilitation service I agree that the key is to make prison work. If it's not working, make it damn well work, and if that means longer sentences or more resources then that's the answer. If we can't offer that, we have no moral right to choose the DP instead. But part of what makes prison work is that it offers more than punishment. (When it doesn't offer more, that's when it fails). Prison is not just about punishment; it is about rehabilitation. Since when has punishment alone made a positive difference to anyone or anything? It's not how you would go about dealing with a wayward child or a difficult employee or training a dog... I am struggling to think of a single instance where punishment alone would ever achieve anything. When it comes to those worst offenders, who are - or should be - locked away for life, then sometimes it becomes a babysitting service as well as a punishment. It has to. How else could it work?
|
|
|
Post by mouse on Jul 11, 2011 8:09:01 GMT -5
prison is for two things a/ to remove the offender from the general population b/punishment for crimes against society as a whole rehabilitation is a totally different issue i would like to see prison work because right now it doesnt..i would make prison some where people did not wish to return to...not by cruelty but by having only the basics in any prison..basic bed.. basic food and plenty of hard work and no privilages what ever untill at least half a sentence has been reached running concurrently with the sentence basic reading and writing and general re-education on a compulsary basis..start off with the most basic of privilages and every ensuing privilage would have to be earned..from phone calls to a better type of food etc etc and all visiting to be behind glass....and get rid of the drug culture..rehabilitation begining in the last third of sentence at the same time take a good look as to why people are inprisoned..and use the probation service more effectivly and have those not incacerated do more within the community punishment does work...but it depends on the punishment as they say there are more ways of skinning a cat than one
|
|
|
Post by mouse on Jul 11, 2011 8:16:30 GMT -5
worst offenders ?? they too would have to work..and earn all privilages....and no more special wings for different types of offence and a life sentence meaning life till breath leaves the body no more soft options.... of course i am in favour of the death sentence for the likes of brady..hindly..neilson etc etc where there is not the shadow of a doubt...but not by hanging or the equally barbaric electric chair there are other ways.........
|
|
|
Post by trubble on Jul 11, 2011 8:22:26 GMT -5
Not in isolation, mouse! I challenge you to prove me wrong.
|
|
|
Post by mouse on Jul 11, 2011 10:53:56 GMT -5
Not in isolation, mouse! I challenge you to prove me wrong. as i am not in charge of prisons i cannot prove you wrong...but it worked with me and it worked with my children..they knew the boundries just as i did......and if i or they stepped over the boundries retribution followed..no ifs or buts..the thing is to make it crystal clear what the boundries are...and what will happen if there is a transcretion..... i worked on a principle of punishment fitting crime......and lots of personal responsibility for ones own behaviour
|
|
|
Post by pipsqueak on Jul 11, 2011 17:53:42 GMT -5
it happens often enough that people are found not to have committed crimes after they have been found 'guilty' - sometimes years later having someones life has been wasted unecessarily incarcerated. i'm afraid i don't have faith in the justice system where it mostly depends on how good onesr brief is. too many cockups occur and one execution for a crime not committed it one too many. it is a barbaric and inhuman to put people to death anyway and should be abolished. Pipsqueak, I like you very much. I think you're one of the most intelligent people on this board and I always read your posts with interest. You think execution is barbaric? OK, what about war? Or eating meat? Or torture? Or self-defence? Or, if it comes to that, life in prison? I visit prisoners regulary and I've been a firm advocate of prison reform and inmate's rights for years, as well as of alternatives to prison. A friend of mine is a cop in the US and he told me a few weeks ago that "prison doesn't work." He wants community punishments rather than prison though, like me, he supports the death penalty for murder. As for innocence, antis exaggerate the numbers of innocent people as much as pros exaggerate deterrence. Do you think Christa Pike, Richard Ramirez, Brittany Holberg, Peter Sutcliffe, Beverley Allitt, Ian Brady or Ian HUntley (to take a few names at random) are innocent? No one believes in their innocence - why not just execute them rather than waste money in locking them up for ever? Who speaks for the victims? thank you - it's kind of you to say that Lin. i didn't know whether you actually wanted me to answer your questions here, or ponder them. but i take your point, and the issues you raised highlight my own flawed thinking. they are powerful thought provoking and difficult to answer questions that make me aware of my own hypocrisy and double standards. the meat issue does not sit comfortably with me at all. i think there is a huge difference between cold blooded state sanctioned killling and the crimes individual human beings commit during a life time. suriving this world is all some individuals can barely do and not falling foul of our fellow man and the system is for some well nigh impossible. not through deliberate intention but often because 'living' is hard. many people wind up in prison not because they are heartless killers or greedy, but for all sorts of situations and reasons that have led them there. and a good proportion i'd say fall foul of the system because of mental health problems and/or abject poverty. while i hardly know anything about the killers you mention or any killers for that matter, the likes of Barry George who was accused of murdering Jill Dando remind me just how wrong the system can get it. Aileen Wournos too, i despair that she was murdered by the state - i wonder if you saw the Nicholas Broomfield coverage on her. it left me thinking what a sad inhuman travesty of justice it was to put her to death. there are no doubt bad bastards whose characters are completely reformed and remorseful for the crimes they've committed. surely they deserve compassion.. granted they have denied it to their victims but as a society perhaps we need to offer that chance. re your friend who is in the police who says prison doesn't work. i can believe that but perhaps its the system that is not geared to work. i don't see society changing drastically enough to reform an inadequate and heavily flawed system, unfortunately and individuals leave prison ill equipped to deal with the everyday. inevitably they end up back inside. backup and safety nets designed to help people stay on the straight and narrow once they are out often to not work. in theory they do but not in practise. i sense your passion and that your heart is in a good place, Lin. and clearly you perform a valuable role within the prison system.
|
|
|
Post by fretslider on Jul 11, 2011 18:08:02 GMT -5
The American system is not really comparable to the English system
|
|
|
Post by pipsqueak on Jul 11, 2011 18:12:45 GMT -5
The American system is not really comparable to the English system i realise. and thankfully we don't have the death penalty otherwise people like Barry George would not be here.
|
|
|
Post by fretslider on Jul 11, 2011 18:15:03 GMT -5
The American system is not really comparable to the English system i realise. and thankfully we don't have the death penalty otherwise people like Barry George would not be here. American police and prisons are very different too.
|
|
Erasmus
Moderatorz
Deep Thought Mod
"We do not take prisoners - we liberate them" - http://www.aeonbytegnosticradio.com
Posts: 2,489
|
Post by Erasmus on Jul 11, 2011 22:20:25 GMT -5
Absolutely certain the American prison system doesn't work in terms of rehabilitation and so forth, because it was never intended to, any more than the Morroccan or Argentinian. Once we see the USA as the world's most developed 3rd country, we see that jail is not about protecting the public from future violation - it is purely a formula, you do what you want, and for some of it we'll do you, but that's all we'll do, punish because we we're bigger and nastier than you, bur we won't offer you anyway out; you are trash and you either yield to our jackboot or we stamp on you until you do
|
|