|
Post by mouse on May 27, 2010 9:00:00 GMT -5
on time team last night..they uncovered the remains of the gate house at beaulie his palace in essex !! they were amazed at how large and impossing it was...all interesting stuff
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on May 28, 2010 1:04:11 GMT -5
I'm very interested. Thanks mouse.
You know, every single one of his wives (except Parr) was pushed at him by their family. Including Katherine of Aragon. It was an arranged, dynastic marriage for all that Katherine loved him and he was fond of her.
If Anne hadn't been pushed in his way, I've wondered if Henry would've gone through with divorcing Katherine. He'd had affairs, he had his illegitimate son the Duke of Richmond. If that boy had lived, I think he would have probably groomed him for the throne.
Did Henry know he was being engineered into these relationships? Or do you think his massive ego couldn't have taken the hit so he brushed any suspicion aside as being a non starter?
|
|
|
Post by mouse on May 28, 2010 2:39:22 GMT -5
i think henry knew...but went along with it in that they were attractive young women..trouble is bolyn and howard were brought up in households where the moral tone was quite lax between the young girlds and the lads who were there so there was always room for supsicion of relationships...his ego from what i can gather was not overwhelming in a sexual sence but more from his intellect and I AM THE KING..gods anointed let no man say me nay,, must be hard to be grounded when your every word is law and obeyed...difficult to be really human he could have groomed richmond all he wished...but the people would never have allowed a by blow on the throne...and all kings if they wish to retain the throne need the people on side to some degree....
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on May 28, 2010 5:38:13 GMT -5
i think henry knew...but went along with it in that they were attractive young women..trouble is bolyn and howard were brought up in households where the moral tone was quite lax between the young girlds and the lads who were there so there was always room for supsicion of relationships...his ego from what i can gather was not overwhelming in a sexual sence but more from his intellect and I AM THE KING..gods anointed let no man say me nay,, must be hard to be grounded when your every word is law and obeyed...difficult to be really human he could have groomed richmond all he wished...but the people would never have allowed a by blow on the throne...and all kings if they wish to retain the throne need the people on side to some degree.... Well, I don't agree with you about Richmond. I think Henry would have put him up as a serious contender but then, again, if there was only him and Mary, you could quite well be right that the people wouldn't accept him over Mary. Howard was certainly brought up in a 'loose' household and that's ultimately what killed her. Boleyn was brought up in the strict household of the Regent of the Netherlands, Margaret of Austria, before she went to France. It was her sister Mary with the bad rep. It was her sister Mary who was Henry's mistress. Anne B had 2 main relationships before Henry, with Henry Percy who wanted to marry her, and Thomas Wyatt the poet who couldn't marry her because he was already married. Percy, as Duke of Northumberland, was on the panel that condemned her to die. The lady herself, Anne Boleyn.
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on May 28, 2010 5:42:30 GMT -5
And while I'm at it, the very young Katherine of Aragon.
|
|
|
Post by mouse on May 28, 2010 6:26:00 GMT -5
thats a lovely portrair of K of aragon have you read ""the other bolyin girl"" about mary i cant remember who wrote it
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on May 28, 2010 7:17:30 GMT -5
thats a lovely portrair of K of aragon have you read ""the other bolyin girl"" about mary i cant remember who wrote it No mouse I haven't read that book. I have seen the movie. I've just finished re-reading Eric Ives' fabulous biography of Anne B. He and Starkey have really re-written the lives of the Tudors. I'm nowhere near getting close yet to the woman - Elizabeth - what a woman, what a queen.
|
|
|
Post by mouse on May 28, 2010 8:48:04 GMT -5
oh please save elizabeth untill i return after next week..i would hate to miss a discussion on her as you say what a woman..what a queen...what a statesman...above all what a survivour
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on May 28, 2010 9:02:07 GMT -5
oh please save elizabeth untill i return after next week..i would hate to miss a discussion on her as you say what a woman..what a queen...what a statesman...above all what a survivour I promise I won't start about Elizabeth. She was such a jewel. A survivor. A stateswoman with Cecil beside her. What about Mary, Queen of Scots? I won't start without you. Gabriel
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on May 29, 2010 1:15:35 GMT -5
englishhistory.net/tudor/prianne3.htmlThis account of Anne Boleyn's speech at her execution was made by the Tudor chronicler Edward Hall. The execution took place on 19 May 1536 at 8 o'clock in the morning. It was the first public execution of an English queen.'Good Christian people, I am come hither to die, for according to the law, and by the law I am judged to die, and therefore I will speak nothing against it. I am come hither to accuse no man, nor to speak anything of that, whereof I am accused and condemned to die, but I pray God save the king and send him long to reign over you, for a gentler nor a more merciful prince was there never: and to me he was ever a good, a gentle and sovereign lord. And if any person will meddle of my cause, I require them to judge the best. And thus I take my leave of the world and of you all, and I heartily desire you all to pray for me. O Lord have mercy on me, to God I commend my soul.' After being blindfolded and kneeling at the block, she repeated several times: 'To Jesus Christ I commend my soul; Lord Jesu receive my soul.' Cromwell turned against Anne at Easter because she wanted the money from the dissolution of the smaller monasteries to go into charitable institutions. It took only one month and one day from then until she died. The next day Henry got engaged to Jane S.
When I read about Anne, I try to picture her on the last night of her life. In my modern mind, I just can't get around the idea of your ex-husband sentencing you to death. And I certainly don't understand the 16th century idea of praising the guy who's ordered your death.
She was a brave woman.
|
|
|
Post by mouse on May 29, 2010 3:50:27 GMT -5
oh please save elizabeth untill i return after next week..i would hate to miss a discussion on her as you say what a woman..what a queen...what a statesman...above all what a survivour I promise I won't start about Elizabeth. She was such a jewel. A survivor. A stateswoman with Cecil beside her. What about Mary, Queen of Scots? I won't start without you. Gabriel am glad you wont start without me..am off the ireland for a short break so will be off line from tomorrow [sunday] evening till the following sunday mary queen of scots is fine by me...not some one i have ever taken to in an historical sense...comes over as rather a silly woman who couldnt see the wood for the trees once she left france..and who could never see that elizabeth was fighting for her own survival...together they could have done great things instead of being at loggerheads....non the less a very sad story the men in her life using and abusing her greatly....for their own ends and power her mother apears to have had a better brain than mary..even if it did her little good in the end..in fact i think henrys 8th sisters are rather underated..just as his mother and most certainly his grandmother were and are.. hey i am enjoing this gabe...i havent talked history with anyone for simply ages..its a real treat for me. its making me have think and delve into my memory thankyou so much
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on May 29, 2010 4:52:51 GMT -5
I promise I won't start about Elizabeth. She was such a jewel. A survivor. A stateswoman with Cecil beside her. What about Mary, Queen of Scots? I won't start without you. Gabriel am glad you wont start without me..am off the ireland for a short break so will be off line from tomorrow [sunday] evening till the following sunday mary queen of scots is fine by me...not some one i have ever taken to in an historical sense...comes over as rather a silly woman who couldnt see the wood for the trees once she left france..and who could never see that elizabeth was fighting for her own survival...together they could have done great things instead of being at loggerheads....non the less a very sad story the men in her life using and abusing her greatly....for their own ends and power her mother apears to have had a better brain than mary..even if it did her little good in the end..in fact i think henrys 8th sisters are rather underated..just as his mother and most certainly his grandmother were and are.. hey i am enjoing this gabe...i havent talked history with anyone for simply ages..its a real treat for me. its making me have think and delve into my memory thankyou so much No probs mouse. Going to Ireland huh? Sounds great. You know Anne's father was trying to become Earl of Ormonde and wanted to marry Anne off to achieve his goal. Oh yeah, these guys really did have ambition. Especially when it came to using the women. Have a great time. What's Ireland like in the Summer, I wonder?
|
|
|
Post by mouse on May 29, 2010 5:07:29 GMT -5
dunno what its like in summer...i have NEVER been to Ireland before....which is why i am going..lol...but its probably green and lush a bit like england in summer but with acent..lol going to Dublin first and then crossing the width of it to wesport Conamarra..so am expecting some great scenery..good food and pleasant company annes father was a devious climbining aspiring man.....but then wernt they all
|
|
|
Post by mouse on May 29, 2010 7:09:52 GMT -5
right the book is.. Henry 8th Kingand court by Alison Weir published by Jonathon Cape ...a good read..lots of detail bit of tome but well worth it
|
|
|
Post by gabriel on May 30, 2010 0:15:21 GMT -5
right the book is.. Henry 8th Kingand court by Alison Weir published by Jonathon Cape ...a good read..lots of detail bit of tome but well worth it OK Yeah mouse I have read it. Alison Weir and Antonia Fraser both wrote pretty decent books on The 6 Wives of Henry VIII but I have to say the one I like the best is by David Starkey. About 2/3rds of his book is devoted to Katherine and Anne because they were around for so much of his life. I enjoyed his Elizabeth and Fraser's Mary, Queen of Scots. If you're looking for great fiction set in these times, I would highly recommend The Lymond Saga by Dorothy Dunnett. There are 6 books in the saga and they run around 430 pages each. I think she started writing them in 1962 and went for the next 20 or so years. I stumbled across them by accident and halfway through the 1st in the series I was hooked. I literally couldn't put them down. I wish someone would make a TV series of them but I guess I'll just have to make do with The Tudors. But, I think I'm hooked on it anyway. Series 4 will be out soon where he's up to Katherine Howard.
|
|