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Post by fretslider on May 25, 2011 14:22:23 GMT -5
I agree with Prashna. Forgiveness suggests an attitude of moral superiority and arrogance. The prayer, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." , that Christ spoke at his crucification does not denote personal forgiveness, but the hope that God will forgive. To me, that means it's not up to us, but God ... or society .. or someone in a position of judgment.I completely DISAGREE with that idea. Forgiveness is NOT about ANY kind of moral superiority or arrogance. REFUSING to forgive DOES seem IMO to display those characteristics. Forgiveness IS about humility and being non-judgemental. That's WHY people who ARE arrogant and feel superior find it HARD to show forgiveness. Forgiveness is good however hard it is. On the hatred thing, it's something you can't always control. If someone wrongs you deeply it's easy to feel that way and it can take a long time to get over it. Forgiveness is better than rancour, arrogance, condescension and hatred. Forgiveness is based on humility, non-judgementalness, a VALUING of the person being forgiven and an ABSENCE of hatred. Sometimes people forgive each other as well when both parties are at fault. Not to value forgiveness seems to me almost as bad a moral idea as not valuing compassion. I just can't understand it to be honest! As this is rooted in religion it can be safely ignored.
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Erasmus
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"We do not take prisoners - we liberate them" - http://www.aeonbytegnosticradio.com
Posts: 2,489
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Post by Erasmus on May 25, 2011 14:24:03 GMT -5
Not to value forgiveness seems to me almost as bad a moral idea as not valuing compassion.
If you have compassion in the first place, need for forgiveness does not arise!
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Post by trubble on May 25, 2011 14:28:25 GMT -5
Maybe we are talking at cross purposes. Maybe there is more than one type of forgiveness. When I (and perhaps Mike and Lin?) talk about forgiveness, I think of it as a state of being rather than something to be bestowed upon someone else.
----------------------- Re the Jesus example, I think that when Jesus said ''forgive them father, they know not what they do" it was a personal plea to his father - he must have known his father would see the killing as a sin, a transgression, and he asked his father to make a personal forgiveness. It says nothing about Jesus saying 'forgive them on my behalf', or of Jesus thinking he was unable to forgive his killers himself, merely that he asked his father to (also) forgive them.
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Post by beth on May 25, 2011 14:47:04 GMT -5
Not to value forgiveness seems to me almost as bad a moral idea as not valuing compassion.If you have compassion in the first place, need for forgiveness does not arise! Bravo! and ping.
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Post by beth on May 25, 2011 14:49:31 GMT -5
I agree with Prashna. Forgiveness suggests an attitude of moral superiority and arrogance. The prayer, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." , that Christ spoke at his crucification does not denote personal forgiveness, but the hope that God will forgive. To me, that means it's not up to us, but God ... or society .. or someone in a position of judgment.I completely DISAGREE with that idea. Forgiveness is NOT about ANY kind of moral superiority or arrogance. REFUSING to forgive DOES seem IMO to display those characteristics. Forgiveness IS about humility and being non-judgemental. That's WHY people who ARE arrogant and feel superior find it HARD to show forgiveness. Forgiveness is good however hard it is. On the hatred thing, it's something you can't always control. If someone wrongs you deeply it's easy to feel that way and it can take a long time to get over it. Forgiveness is better than rancour, arrogance, condescension and hatred. Forgiveness is based on humility, non-judgementalness, a VALUING of the person being forgiven and an ABSENCE of hatred. Sometimes people forgive each other as well when both parties are at fault. Not to value forgiveness seems to me almost as bad a moral idea as not valuing compassion. I just can't understand it to be honest! As this is rooted in religion it can be safely ignored. Perhaps you'll be forgiven for ignoring same.
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Post by beth on May 25, 2011 14:52:48 GMT -5
Maybe we are talking at cross purposes. Maybe there is more than one type of forgiveness. When I (and perhaps Mike and Lin?) talk about forgiveness, I think of it as a state of being rather than something to be bestowed upon someone else. ----------------------- Re the Jesus example, I think that when Jesus said ''forgive them father, they know not what they do" it was a personal plea to his father - he must have known his father would see the killing as a sin, a transgression, and he asked his father to make a personal forgiveness. It says nothing about Jesus saying 'forgive them on my behalf', or of Jesus thinking he was unable to forgive his killers himself, merely that he asked his father to (also) forgive them. But, trubs ... isn't this presuming to know what other people think and mean? Isn't that all part of the forgiveness game? Not meant personally, just as a point of discussion. jmo
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Post by fretslider on May 25, 2011 14:59:33 GMT -5
As this is rooted in religion it can be safely ignored. Perhaps you'll be forgiven for ignoring same. I can live without it
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Post by biglin on May 25, 2011 15:41:28 GMT -5
I agree with Prashna. Forgiveness suggests an attitude of moral superiority and arrogance. The prayer, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." , that Christ spoke at his crucification does not denote personal forgiveness, but the hope that God will forgive. To me, that means it's not up to us, but God ... or society .. or someone in a position of judgment.I completely DISAGREE with that idea. Forgiveness is NOT about ANY kind of moral superiority or arrogance. REFUSING to forgive DOES seem IMO to display those characteristics. Forgiveness IS about humility and being non-judgemental. That's WHY people who ARE arrogant and feel superior find it HARD to show forgiveness. Forgiveness is good however hard it is. On the hatred thing, it's something you can't always control. If someone wrongs you deeply it's easy to feel that way and it can take a long time to get over it. Forgiveness is better than rancour, arrogance, condescension and hatred. Forgiveness is based on humility, non-judgementalness, a VALUING of the person being forgiven and an ABSENCE of hatred. Sometimes people forgive each other as well when both parties are at fault. Not to value forgiveness seems to me almost as bad a moral idea as not valuing compassion. I just can't understand it to be honest! As this is rooted in religion it can be safely ignored. No it isn't. It's rooted in human feelings. Religion has nothing to do with it.
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Post by fretslider on May 25, 2011 15:44:13 GMT -5
As this is rooted in religion it can be safely ignored. No it isn't. It's rooted in human feelings. Religion has nothing to do with it. "Deep in the human heart is a profound longing to know the reality of God's forgiveness. Without it, our lives can be locked up in guilt and anger. Experiencing the reality of God's forgiveness brings a whole new orientation to life. We then face the challenge of extending this forgiveness to those who have wronged us." What did you say?
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Post by biglin on May 25, 2011 15:44:13 GMT -5
Maybe we are talking at cross purposes. Maybe there is more than one type of forgiveness. When I (and perhaps Mike and Lin?) talk about forgiveness, I think of it as a state of being rather than something to be bestowed upon someone else. ----------------------- Re the Jesus example, I think that when Jesus said ''forgive them father, they know not what they do" it was a personal plea to his father - he must have known his father would see the killing as a sin, a transgression, and he asked his father to make a personal forgiveness. It says nothing about Jesus saying 'forgive them on my behalf', or of Jesus thinking he was unable to forgive his killers himself, merely that he asked his father to (also) forgive them. But, trubs ... isn't this presuming to know what other people think and mean? Isn't that all part of the forgiveness game? Not meant personally, just as a point of discussion. jmo There's NOTHING presumptuous or arrogant about forgiving another person. It's REFUSING even to CONSIDER doing that which is arrogant and presumptuous. What makes anyone think they're so superior they can harbour grudges for evermore? THEY'RE the arrogant and presumptuous ones, NOT those who forgive others.
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Post by fretslider on May 25, 2011 15:45:29 GMT -5
"What makes anyone think they're so superior they can harbour grudges for evermore?"
I'll ask Mike. I know of one thing he can't forgive
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Post by biglin on May 25, 2011 15:46:24 GMT -5
You can forgive people because you're a decent human being even if you DON'T have ANY religious beliefs.
I freely admit that I AM a Christian and I've never denied it.
On your own principles, all atheists must be immoral people which I just don't believe.
Like I said, forgiveness is a human emotion and religion has NO necessary connection with it.
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Post by biglin on May 25, 2011 15:47:42 GMT -5
Not to value forgiveness seems to me almost as bad a moral idea as not valuing compassion.If you have compassion in the first place, need for forgiveness does not arise! Not sure I agree with that. Sometimes it's only AFTER you've suffered a wrong that you develop a proper sense of compassion. In any case, how ANYONE can make out that forgiveness is somehow something we should be ASHAMED of just boggles my tiny mind!
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Post by fretslider on May 25, 2011 15:49:47 GMT -5
You can forgive people because you're a decent human being even if you DON'T have ANY religious beliefs. I freely admit that I AM a Christian and I've never denied it. On your own principles, all atheists must be immoral people which I just don't believe. Like I said, forgiveness is a human emotion and religion has NO necessary connection with it. Forgiveness is an emotion. I see. I'm not an emotional person. Lacking an emotion is not immoral then, is it.
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Post by biglin on May 25, 2011 15:51:59 GMT -5
Having feelings is part and parcel of being a human being.
Not having them - well, ask a psychologist about what lacking emotions means.
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