Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 21, 2011 16:45:42 GMT -5
Forgiveness is one of the hardest things for many of us to show. When we are the victim of a wrong (real or imagined) it is easy to show anger, hold grudges and become twisted and bitter.
What forgiveness means is not simply letting go of the hurt inside us but, more than that, reaching out to the person who wronged you and extending the hand, if not of friendship, at least of reconciliation.
I spend most of my online time counselling victims of rape, sexual abuse and violent assault.
Recently one of the ladies on my board told me she had, several years after the assault upon her, made contact with her rapist. She told him that she forgave him and he actually cried when she said that to him. He apologised for what he had done to her and she told him that, even though the rape had damaged her life, she had become stronger now.
She no longer distrusted people and she no longer harboured hatred and resentment in her heart towards her abuser.
I admire the simple dignity of that lady.
I think we can all learn a lesson from her example.
|
|
|
Post by sadie on May 22, 2011 16:21:58 GMT -5
An interesting topic.
I have (or had) someone in my life that caused my entire family a lot of grief and hard feelings my entire life. They are gone now. I didn't think their passing would mean a thing.......but I find I am struggling with what I feel. Is it forgiveness? I don't know......don't think this person could have ever been any other way so why should I have expected different? Is there anger.......yes....which means I do need to forgive.........Is there sadness......yes....that it could have been so much different............To forgive that person wouldn't mean a thing to them.......alive or dead. So what is the emotion I am trying to find within myself? Is it acceptance? Or do I need to forgive myself for the anger I have held onto for so many years?
|
|
|
Post by mouse on May 23, 2011 2:20:09 GMT -5
not sure if i ever fully forgive.. .but one thing is certain i never forget any thing bad done to my self or family not that i carry it round like a burden..life is far to short to be consumed by feelings of anger or wanting revenge etc but do believe what goes around comes around..
|
|
|
Post by markindurham on May 23, 2011 3:00:58 GMT -5
not sure if i ever fully forgive.. .but one thing is certain i never forget any thing bad done to my self or family not that i carry it round like a burden..life is far to short to be consumed by feelings of anger or wanting revenge etc but do believe what goes around comes around.. Absolutely. Concur 100%
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2011 5:03:03 GMT -5
Forgiveness is a oft-misunderstood concept. It is presumptuous and arrogant. Why should anyone feel that they are so morally superior that they can judge another being for any action. By that token the close ones of every spider that a human being kills without thought should forgive the particular person and humankind in general. Forgiveness assumes perfect judgment and appreciation of the circumstances, needs and values of the other being/s; and a host of other imponderables. In short, forgiveness is a redundant concept.What is needed is compassion, understanding and a full acceptance of the rights and values of others. When those are present, there remains no need or justification for forgiveness. The example cited is an exception. The reality is far more difficult to accept. The fact is that all actions have consequences. This particular rape may not have had any further consequences than mental trauma, which is bad enough. However, other rapes have far worse consequences. For example consider the mass rape of Bengali women by the Pakistani troops in the <bangladesh genocide of 1971>. The result was thousands of unwanted pregnancies imposed upon those Bengali victims and the consequences on the emergent nation of Bangladesh. How does any individual forgiveness rectify the lasting damage of the mass rape and genocide? ...If we take the highest estimates for both women raped and Bengalis killed (400,000 and 3 million, respectively); if we accept that half as many women were killed as were raped; ...
...The accounts of the two hundred interviewees were same. They differed only in details. “There were piled up dead bodies. Dead Kids’ on dead mum’s laps. Wives hugging their beloved husbands to protect them from killer bullets. Dads’ hugging their daughters to shield them. Within a flash they all were just dead bodies. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Numerous women were tortured, raped and killed during the war.[44] Again, exact numbers are not known and are a subject of debate. Bangladeshi sources cite a figure of 200,000 women raped, giving birth to thousands of war-babies. The Pakistan Army also kept numerous Bengali women as sex-slaves inside the Dhaka Cantonment. Most of the girls were captured from Dhaka University and private homes+++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Forgiveness is no help in that situation. What is required is an awareness of the danger and active steps to minimise or avert that danger.Regards. Prashna
|
|
|
Post by beth on May 23, 2011 8:44:05 GMT -5
I don't think I'm a hard-hearted or judgmental person at all, quite the opposite in most things. But, I have a real problem with people who are repeat offenders in the way they treat others and, then, believe they should expect forgiveness time after time after time. "Oh .. oops! I've been naughty again and again and again ... but I'm sure you understand I'm over it and I'll try to do better." I try to keep an open mind, but the, again and again and again, gets very old and, finally, results in forming an opinion about the kind of person/people they are. Then, it isn't a question of forgiveness ... it's a closed relationship.
|
|
|
Post by iamjumbo on May 23, 2011 11:52:40 GMT -5
the simple FACT is that there is no rational reason to ever forgive anyone after the first time. you don't have a right to do anything that you will need forgiveness for to begin with. doing something that you know is wrong is NEVER making a mistake, it is intentional, and there shouldn't be any forgiveness for that, since obviously, none is deserved. it definitely all does lay on the individual that has done the wrong. there is certainly never a justification for forgiving anyone who has not asked to be forgiven
|
|
|
Post by beth on May 23, 2011 13:13:08 GMT -5
the simple FACT is that there is no rational reason to ever forgive anyone after the first time. you don't have a right to do anything that you will need forgiveness for to begin with. doing something that you know is wrong is NEVER making a mistake, it is intentional, and there shouldn't be any forgiveness for that, since obviously, none is deserved. it definitely all does lay on the individual that has done the wrong. there is certainly never a justification for forgiving anyone who has not asked to be forgiven That's cold, Jim. Have to think most of us are warmer hearted than that. But, I do agree with the principle - fool me once, shame on you ... and being a softie, I might even give it twice .. but try to fool me over and over and over again .. more the fool you and forgiveness will be hard to come by.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 23, 2011 13:54:33 GMT -5
the simple FACT is that there is no rational reason to ever forgive anyone after the first time. you don't have a right to do anything that you will need forgiveness for to begin with. doing something that you know is wrong is NEVER making a mistake, it is intentional, and there shouldn't be any forgiveness for that, since obviously, none is deserved. it definitely all does lay on the individual that has done the wrong. there is certainly never a justification for forgiving anyone who has not asked to be forgiven That's cold, Jim. Have to think most of us are warmer hearted than that. But, I do agree with the principle - fool me once, shame on you ... and being a softie, I might even give it twice .. but try to fool me over and over and over again .. more the fool you and forgiveness will be hard to come by. "Once is happenstance, twice is co-incidence, thrice is enemy action."
|
|
|
Post by beth on May 23, 2011 16:48:28 GMT -5
That's cold, Jim. Have to think most of us are warmer hearted than that. But, I do agree with the principle - fool me once, shame on you ... and being a softie, I might even give it twice .. but try to fool me over and over and over again .. more the fool you and forgiveness will be hard to come by. "Once is happenstance, twice is co-incidence, thrice is enemy action." Excellent, Prashna. Is that an actual quote or Prasna-wisdom? I'd like to borrow it. Beth
|
|
|
Post by iamjumbo on May 24, 2011 8:22:41 GMT -5
the simple FACT is that there is no rational reason to ever forgive anyone after the first time. you don't have a right to do anything that you will need forgiveness for to begin with. doing something that you know is wrong is NEVER making a mistake, it is intentional, and there shouldn't be any forgiveness for that, since obviously, none is deserved. it definitely all does lay on the individual that has done the wrong. there is certainly never a justification for forgiving anyone who has not asked to be forgiven That's cold, Jim. Have to think most of us are warmer hearted than that. But, I do agree with the principle - fool me once, shame on you ... and being a softie, I might even give it twice .. but try to fool me over and over and over again .. more the fool you and forgiveness will be hard to come by. not cold hon, just real, although, i've broken the rule with hazel several times. i spent the first half of my life doing the trust and forgiving trip. it took me too long to learn better, but once i did, it has served me much better
|
|
|
Post by Dex on May 24, 2011 8:35:29 GMT -5
Nobody is perfect. If you expect other people to forgive you you need to be ready to forgive them.
|
|
|
Post by iamjumbo on May 24, 2011 12:00:47 GMT -5
Nobody is perfect. If you expect other people to forgive you you need to be ready to forgive them. that's true, but i don't have to worry about it. if i know something is wrong and i might need being forgiven for it, i just don't do it. no problem that way
|
|
|
Post by biglin on May 24, 2011 15:44:48 GMT -5
Sometimes the hardest thing to do is to forgive yourself.
I know what I'm talking about.
I've been forgiven by others BEFORE I was able to forgive myself.
I've also forgiven others before THEY were able to forgive themself.
Look, compassion, kindness, empathy and all that are what it's all about.
Coldness, lack of empathy, being choked with hatred and revenge are the things that make life WORSE instead of better.
Like Jesus said, you have to GO ON forgiving.
You have to turn the other cheek again and again and again.
That's what he wants us to do and I freely admit it's too hard for me to do.
I try and maybe 25% of the time I manage it.
On a personal note I've become a MORE forgiving person since I discovered message board lands!
You know I've known people in the camps who forgave the Nazis.
People from the gulags who forgave the Communists.
People from the genocide in Rwanda who forgave the Hutu.
Forgiveness, like love, is in all of us.
So are revenge and hatred.
It's up to us which way we want to go.
|
|
Erasmus
Moderatorz
Deep Thought Mod
"We do not take prisoners - we liberate them" - http://www.aeonbytegnosticradio.com
Posts: 2,489
|
Post by Erasmus on May 24, 2011 16:33:47 GMT -5
I would like to know exactly what Jesus is supposed to have said, because forgiveness is not something the ancient world had much concept of and as far as they did, tended to regard as immoral complicity in tolerating wrongful acts. Understanding and not harbouring grudges are rather different concepts I find easier to grasp. On the whole, forgiveness seems to imply a contradiction of making a moral judgmental while refusing to do anything about it, possibly for reasons of a sense of moral superiority. I think it much more valuable not to make that kind of moral judgment in the first place.
It is certainly necessary to make practical judgments for future reference but personal integrity is too important and life too short to grant malefactors the power of over it of dedication to revenge. If harm has been done, that shows a harmful person best avoided and pointed out to others to be wary of. The only thing that harbouring a grudge will do is interfere with getting on with more constructive priorities.
Forgive? If a wasp stings you, do you forgive it? The question is absurd because only a child would think in terms of wanting to get their own back on it. On the other hand, learn to be wary of autumn wasps. There is neither revenge nor forgiveness, merely recognition that it is the nature of autumnal wasps to sting. Likewise, it is the nature of some people to be dangerous. Therefore be wary of them but if they have done harm, such is life and to grant them the control of seething with indignation for revenge is only to add to the harm they have done.
Unconsciously I recognised some phraseology from my list of signature aphorisms. There are several all from the same basically Stoic source:
"It is a ridiculous thing for a man not to fly from his own evil, which is in fact possible, but to fly from other men's evil, which is impossible"
"The best way to avenge yourself is not to become the same"
"Take care not to feel towards the inhuman as they feel towards humans"
"People exist for the sake of each other. Teach them then or bear with them"
"If anyone has done wrong, the harm is their own. But perhaps they have not done wrong"
Marcus Aurelius - 121-180 CE
|
|