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Post by fretslider on May 24, 2011 16:42:02 GMT -5
Forgiveness is typically defined as the process of concluding resentment, indignation or anger as a result of a perceived offense, difference or mistake, or ceasing to demand punishment or restitution.
"Then Peter came and said to Him, 'Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?' Jesus said to him, 'I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy-seven times.'" Matthew 18:21-22
Thats right, it's a load of hot air.
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Erasmus
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Post by Erasmus on May 24, 2011 17:01:45 GMT -5
The key that is missed is that this is not for the brother's sake, it is for your own. Don't we all know people whose life is a misery and usually make a misery of other people's life too because they are too full of resentment and indignation for anything else to get a look in? Get over yourself and let the past go.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2011 17:47:13 GMT -5
Forgiveness is NOT a "lot of hot air" although anger frequently IS exactly that.
Actually science shows that altruism is a more effective evolutionary strategy than egoism and that forgiveness is a more effective way of healing a wrong than nursing anger and vengeance in perpetuity.
I freely admit that it is one of the hardest things to do.
It requires, among other things, the quality of humility which is often hard for some people to display.
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Post by Erasmus on May 24, 2011 18:46:01 GMT -5
It requires, among other things, the quality of humility which is often hard for some people to display. I disagree with that. Forgiveness is extreme arrogance awarding oneself near god-like status to both judge as deserving retribution and then to claim the magnanimity of setting one's own judgment aside as above even one's own rules. Far better to be incapable of lowering oneself to be perturbed enough to feel the need to want to go out of one's way with a desire for revenge in the first place. Sometimes too, ignoring and laughing can be greater revenge.
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Post by beth on May 24, 2011 19:46:34 GMT -5
Forgiveness is NOT a "lot of hot air" although anger frequently IS exactly that. Actually science shows that altruism is a more effective evolutionary strategy than egoism and that forgiveness is a more effective way of healing a wrong than nursing anger and vengeance in perpetuity. I freely admit that it is one of the hardest things to do. It requires, among other things, the quality of humility which is often hard for some people to display. hmmm why would anger necessarily be the result of declining to forgive? That would surely depend on the circumstances ... wouldn't it? I can't imagine thinking/saying "I don't feel inclined to forgive for that, so I'll be angry." I think it's much more common for a person who feels they don't want to forgive something in particular to be able to relate normally on other fronts. For example - Janet deliberately fabricated and told a story that damaged Carol's reputation. She did not ask for forgiveness but sometime later, came to work at the same company where Carol was her supervisor. IMO, Carol should be able to have a neutral work relationship with Janet but is not obligated to "forgive" Janet or be her personal friend. Also, why would you want or need to forgive if the other person was .. oh, say ... sorry for giving offense but not for the thing that caused that reaction. Let's say someone deliberately stomped down hard on your foot, causing pain and anger, then said, "I'm so sorry you were displeased with that pain, do forgive me." Were they sorry they injured you? Not at all ... just that you reacted badly to the injury. If I believe I've been unfair or unpleasant to someone, deliberately, I may or may not apologize but wouldn't ask forgiveness, because that, to me, would probably be too personal ... a bit over the top. OTOH, if I did something that hurt or upset someone near and dear, I'd bend over backward to resolve the conflict and *try* not to do it again. This "blanket forgiveness" concern seems a little hypocritical and more than a little self-serving to me. I don't think ordinary people live in that kind of reality except, perhaps, in connection with religious confession and penance.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2011 3:57:26 GMT -5
Forgiveness is NOT a "lot of hot air" although anger frequently IS exactly that. Actually science shows that altruism is a more effective evolutionary strategy than egoism and that forgiveness is a more effective way of healing a wrong than nursing anger and vengeance in perpetuity. I freely admit that it is one of the hardest things to do. It requires, among other things, the quality of humility which is often hard for some people to display. Forgiveness often involves the trait of arrogance, which is unfortunately quite common.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2011 9:06:37 GMT -5
Discussion of emotions and topics that involve them is always particularly difficult.
However, speaking as someone who is at times prone to outbursts of anger, I am well aware of the fundamental difference between anger and hatred.
Anger is like a volcanic eruption; hatred is a slow-burning fuse.
Forgiveness is part of the myriad complex mix of human emotions.
It is one of the hardest qualities to find within myself.
All I know is that I feel humbled when I DO see victims of wrongs who ARE able to forgive the person who wronged them.
I wish I was more capable of responding in that way myself more frequently than I am.
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Post by trubble on May 25, 2011 9:33:17 GMT -5
Forgiveness is NOT a "lot of hot air" although anger frequently IS exactly that. Actually science shows that altruism is a more effective evolutionary strategy than egoism and that forgiveness is a more effective way of healing a wrong than nursing anger and vengeance in perpetuity. I freely admit that it is one of the hardest things to do. I think that's much nearer the truth than Prashna's suggestion that it requires arrogance. Prashna said: I don't think moral superiority comes into forgiveness. Maybe it does at a superficial level, or when trying to enter into the arena of forgiveness, maybe there's a stage where you need to remind yourself that you are better than they are just to keep yourself from a path of retribution, but I don't think it's really part of forgiveness at all. I think moral superiority is part of refusing to forgive and of holding on to the offence. The moments where I have been able to forgive have felt more like humility, understanding, and acceptance. And then a release. (I think being able to rely on a christian faith (which I don't, but once did) helps the process of forgiveness enormously because you are released from having to hold on to the moral superiority, or judgement, or resentment. You release it all in to God's hands. You are too humble before God to have a bigger say than he does. )
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Post by fretslider on May 25, 2011 11:32:16 GMT -5
Forgiveness is NOT a "lot of hot air" although anger frequently IS exactly that. Actually science shows that altruism is a more effective evolutionary strategy than egoism and that forgiveness is a more effective way of healing a wrong than nursing anger and vengeance in perpetuity. I freely admit that it is one of the hardest things to do. It requires, among other things, the quality of humility which is often hard for some people to display. "Then Peter came and said to Him, 'Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?' Jesus said to him, 'I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy-seven times.'" Matthew 18:21-22 Thats right, it's a load of hot air. How is life on the fence?
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Erasmus
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Post by Erasmus on May 25, 2011 11:34:46 GMT -5
(I think being able to rely on a christian faith (which I don't, but once did) helps the process of forgiveness enormously because you are released from having to hold on to the moral superiority, or judgement, or resentment. You release it all in to God's hands. You are too humble before God to have a bigger say than he does. ) That's an interesting take on Christianity that sounds more Jewish - God can forgive you, that's his job; I don't, it isn't my job (Like Katherine the Great - I shall be an autocrat, that's my job; God will forgive me, that's his ) That's not how I interpret the Christian intention (but then again why I do not consider myself Christian). It would be that Deity is of an order of abstraction only able to affect this world through human agency, therefore forgiveness is Deity operative in us. However, I feel it preferable not to let anything become such a personal wind-up that it needs an effort to replace revenge with forgiveness.
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Post by beth on May 25, 2011 12:04:48 GMT -5
I guess I don't understand the concept of "hate". First of all, it seems to be a very personal emotion, so I might despise the actions of murders and others who do real harm .. I don't feel hate because the person/people are remote and unknown to me. I can view them with the deepest disdain, but that isn't the same as hate, I don't believe. From a personal POV, I do know someone quite well who has done a lot of harm and hurt a number of people known to me. I dislike her, do not want to have anything to do with her but neither hate her nor feel any wish to forgive her. I agree with Prashna. Forgiveness suggests an attitude of moral superiority and arrogance. The prayer, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." , that Christ spoke at his crucification does not denote personal forgiveness, but the hope that God will forgive. To me, that means it's not up to us, but God ... or society .. or someone in a position of judgment. I dunno ... more a matter of attitude, I guess. I simply do not like the idea that non-forgiveness breeds hate. More often "hate" is the crime and punishment of the hater ... who has not necessarily been wronged - a very destructive emotion, and, as mentioned above, I do not want to be put in the position of needing to "forgive". IOW, don't ask me to forgive you, just recognize your "wrong" and don't do it again. You never know ... I might want compensation. Ha!
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Post by trubble on May 25, 2011 12:38:30 GMT -5
(I think being able to rely on a christian faith (which I don't, but once did) helps the process of forgiveness enormously because you are released from having to hold on to the moral superiority, or judgement, or resentment. You release it all in to God's hands. You are too humble before God to have a bigger say than he does. ) That's an interesting take on Christianity that sounds more Jewish - God can forgive you, that's his job; I don't, it isn't my job (Like Katherine the Great - I shall be an autocrat, that's my job; God will forgive me, that's his ) Maybe it's just a take on any faith that includes a god. I've never been Jewish but I have been Christian, that's why I thought of Christianity. I suppose that I currently use 'the universe' to replace 'God'. I hand things over to the universe.
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Post by trubble on May 25, 2011 12:41:33 GMT -5
I don't know where the arrogance and moral superiority is supposed to fit in. Forgiveness is a process between you and yourself. It's not an action one takes upon another person. You can inform someone that that process has occured within you but by informing them you aren't really doing anything to them - it's not a pardon. A pardon requires a sense of authority and superiority, if not moral then at least in status. Forgiveness requires only deep understanding. The lowliest or most immoral of us can forgive.
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Post by biglin on May 25, 2011 12:46:50 GMT -5
I agree with Prashna. Forgiveness suggests an attitude of moral superiority and arrogance. The prayer, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." , that Christ spoke at his crucification does not denote personal forgiveness, but the hope that God will forgive. To me, that means it's not up to us, but God ... or society .. or someone in a position of judgment.
I completely DISAGREE with that idea. Forgiveness is NOT about ANY kind of moral superiority or arrogance.
REFUSING to forgive DOES seem IMO to display those characteristics.
Forgiveness IS about humility and being non-judgemental.
That's WHY people who ARE arrogant and feel superior find it HARD to show forgiveness.
Forgiveness is good however hard it is.
On the hatred thing, it's something you can't always control.
If someone wrongs you deeply it's easy to feel that way and it can take a long time to get over it.
Forgiveness is better than rancour, arrogance, condescension and hatred.
Forgiveness is based on humility, non-judgementalness, a VALUING of the person being forgiven and an ABSENCE of hatred.
Sometimes people forgive each other as well when both parties are at fault.
Not to value forgiveness seems to me almost as bad a moral idea as not valuing compassion.
I just can't understand it to be honest!
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Post by beth on May 25, 2011 14:08:29 GMT -5
Forgiveness IS about humility and being non-judgemental umm no One has to be judgmental to conclude their "forgiveness" has any kind of impact at all. But ... I'll tell you what, Lin ... I promise to consider that I *might* be in that position if you'll tone down the all caps. Even promise I'll try my best not to do that, either.
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