Jessiealan
xr
Member of the Month, October 2013
Posts: 8,726
|
Post by Jessiealan on Feb 2, 2015 16:20:39 GMT -5
he had control over those drug-addled young people and told them to commit the murders - 5 or 6 of them. How can you doubt his guilt? I don't, but the legal theory is still questionable. I doubt he'd be convicted under that theory today. In fact, a few years later Patty Hearst argued she was induced to commit bank robbery, and the jury didn't buy it. So much depends on the outlook of the Jury and the age in which events occur. Overall, things might have been rougher for Hearst had she been a poor girl. The Weed person did her no good, either. As for Manson, he and his "followers" did the unthinkable. He will die in Prison, wife or no wife, whether he ever personally committed murder or not.
|
|
|
Post by beth on Feb 2, 2015 17:10:03 GMT -5
Hearst wasn't the master mind. Wasn't she an example of Stockholm Syndrome? That was the claim. It didn't work as a legal strategy. I'm just saying the prosecution of Manson himself was unique. I'm not aware of a similar prosecution in California in the last forty years. Jessie's probably right that the time (in history) had a lot to do with the way it turned out. Did you read the Vincent Bugliosi book? The bottom line when assigning blame was drugs. I don't think we have the same attitude toward drugs today. Now, people seem to just assume drugs are involved with violence and hold human beings responsible in spite of that. Now, Charlie might be seen as just another loony figure in the group instead of the major puppeteer. I think the jury did the right thing, though, whether it was irregular or not.
|
|
josephdphillips
Global Facilitator
January 2015 Member of the Month
Posts: 3,494
|
Post by josephdphillips on Feb 2, 2015 18:14:22 GMT -5
he and his "followers" did the unthinkable. He will die in Prison, wife or no wife, whether he ever personally committed murder or not. He probably has killed by his own hand, but he was never arrested for those killings. In any case, he could have been out of prison a long time ago, but he would not know what to do with himself, nor would he feel safe, out on his own.
|
|
josephdphillips
Global Facilitator
January 2015 Member of the Month
Posts: 3,494
|
Post by josephdphillips on Feb 2, 2015 18:20:04 GMT -5
Did you read the Vincent Bugliosi book? The bottom line when assigning blame was drugs. Yes, I read Helter Skelter several times over the years. I do not recall from having read the book that controlled substances propelled the Manson family members to kill the La Biancas, Sharon Tate, Sharon Tate's baby, and others at the house she shared with Roman Polanski. What I recall is that they did it (a) to bring about "helter skelter," the race war that Manson wanted, and (b) because it was fun. I have also read Bugliosi's book about the O.J. Simpson case.
|
|
|
Post by beth on Feb 2, 2015 18:36:51 GMT -5
All true ... according to the book and other accounts, but also true that they were heavily into drugs. I've long believed they had to be to fall for Manson's BS about Helter Skelter and the part he wanted him to play. Either that or idiots.
|
|
ladylinda
Moderatorz
Poetry Editor
July 2011 Member of the Month, May 2014 Member of the Month
Posts: 4,901
|
Post by ladylinda on Feb 6, 2015 8:34:37 GMT -5
What sane person doubts the guilt of Charles Manson, Richard Ramirez, Peter Sutcliffe, Ian Brady, Ian Huntley, Beverley Allitt or Christa Pike? The guilt of Manson is open to debate, since he never actually killed anyone. e That's the same kind of bullshit that lets Hitler and Stalin off the hook on the grounds they didn't actually kill anyone personally. Or a Mafia boss who gives orders to a hitman. When are you going to STOP being the criminals's friend, Joe? You are the most pro-criminal and pro-murderer I've ever met online!
|
|
josephdphillips
Global Facilitator
January 2015 Member of the Month
Posts: 3,494
|
Post by josephdphillips on Feb 6, 2015 9:48:43 GMT -5
That's the same kind of bullshit that lets Hitler and Stalin off the hook on the grounds they didn't actually kill anyone personally. Or a Mafia boss who gives orders to a hitman. When are you going to STOP being the criminals's friend, Joe? You are the most pro-criminal and pro-murderer I've ever met online! Apparently you have a learning disability. I said it was open to debate. I didn't say I debated it. I always thought Manson was guilty. Hitler and Stalin were heads of state. As such they were in positions of authority. Ditto with the heads of criminal gangs. Some would argue that Manson was not in such a position. If you had bothered to read Bugliosi's book, you'd know his followers were never held against their will. They were, in fact, given several incentives to leave, since Manson exploited them financially. As for the Holocaust, Hitler was never to blame for it. The German people were -- every man, woman and child.
|
|
|
Post by men an tol on Feb 6, 2015 12:11:49 GMT -5
That's the same kind of bullshit that lets Hitler and Stalin off the hook on the grounds they didn't actually kill anyone personally. Or a Mafia boss who gives orders to a hitman. When are you going to STOP being the criminals's friend, Joe? You are the most pro-criminal and pro-murderer I've ever met online! Apparently you have a learning disability. I said it was open to debate. I didn't say I debated it. I always thought Manson was guilty. Hitler and Stalin were heads of state. As such they were in positions of authority. Ditto with the heads of criminal gangs. Some would argue that Manson was not in such a position. If you had bothered to read Bugliosi's book, you'd know his followers were never held against their will. They were, in fact, given several incentives to leave, since Manson exploited them financially. As for the Holocaust, Hitler was never to blame for it. The German people were -- every man, woman and child. Joseph, I understand (I believe) what you mean by saying that the German people were to blame for the Holocaust, however, without Hitler it would never have happened. He laid the justification for it in 'Mein Kampf' with the focusing on the Jews as the blame for most of the German problems (mostly economically). However, the development for the 'final solution' began during the 1930s with the focus on the old and the mentally and physically deficient. They were increasingly being moved into housing sites where as the numbers there increased their deaths were one way of getting rid of their existence and load on the economy. Those deaths were increased by first poor diets and in some cases starving of these people. This was inefficient and from this came a developed plan to use poison gas to kill them. This was the foundation of the plan that was used to create death camps for the Jews. Approval for this went all the way to Hitler. If I could ever find it around here somewhere I have an article about this from this time describing this process. Even so, while not highly publicized this was not hid from the German people. This demonstrates that under the right incentives people can support (or at least look away) from just about anything. The Great Depression was fully underway at the time and people wanted a reason why and the German people accepted that fault was not theirs but was the fault of the Jews. Even so, without Hitler it would not have happened.
|
|
|
Post by fretslider on Feb 6, 2015 13:17:26 GMT -5
As for the Holocaust, Hitler was never to blame for it. The German people were -- every man, woman and child. I understand the sentiment, but really; that stretches credulity way too far. I can't see how every single man, woman and child in the US was responsible for Iraq, yet by your logic, Joseph, it's all your fault my friend.
|
|
|
Post by fretslider on Feb 6, 2015 13:20:28 GMT -5
The guilt of Manson is open to debate, since he never actually killed anyone. e That's the same kind of bullshit that lets Hitler and Stalin off the hook on the grounds they didn't actually kill anyone personally. Or a Mafia boss who gives orders to a hitman. When are you going to STOP being the criminals's friend, Joe? You are the most pro-criminal and pro-murderer I've ever met online! If I may.... Try thinking logically and letting go of the emotion
|
|
josephdphillips
Global Facilitator
January 2015 Member of the Month
Posts: 3,494
|
Post by josephdphillips on Feb 6, 2015 13:27:03 GMT -5
I understand the sentiment, but really; that stretches credulity way too far. I can't see how every single man, woman and child in the US was responsible for Iraq, yet by your logic, Joseph, it's all your fault my friend. If George W. Bush had been elected after publishing, in great detail, how he would exterminate the entire population of Iraq, and he had fulfilled his promise, with the blessing of the American people, we would arguably be collectively culpable for that genocide. The children who read Mein Kampf in the early thirties grew up to be the German adults who looked the other way when trainloads of Jews were hauled to concentration and extermination camps.
|
|
Jessiealan
xr
Member of the Month, October 2013
Posts: 8,726
|
Post by Jessiealan on Feb 6, 2015 13:31:06 GMT -5
That's the same kind of bullshit that lets Hitler and Stalin off the hook on the grounds they didn't actually kill anyone personally. Or a Mafia boss who gives orders to a hitman. When are you going to STOP being the criminals's friend, Joe? You are the most pro-criminal and pro-murderer I've ever met online! Some would argue that Manson was not in such a position. If you had bothered to read Bugliosi's book, you'd know his followers were never held against their will. They were, in fact, given several incentives to leave, since Manson exploited them financially. Manson chose his followers carefully. They were not self sufficient, at least they were not in their own minds. They were druggies, Joseph.
|
|
josephdphillips
Global Facilitator
January 2015 Member of the Month
Posts: 3,494
|
Post by josephdphillips on Feb 6, 2015 13:31:21 GMT -5
Hitler it would not have happened. Were it not for Hitler, someone just like him would have done the same. A German.
|
|
josephdphillips
Global Facilitator
January 2015 Member of the Month
Posts: 3,494
|
Post by josephdphillips on Feb 6, 2015 13:48:20 GMT -5
Manson chose his followers carefully. They were not self sufficient, at least they were not in their own minds. They were druggies, Joseph. And yet they were held equally responsible for the killings. Because they were druggies? I think not. The drugs they took aren't the kind that propel otherwise non-violent people to acts of murder.
|
|
|
Post by annaj26 on Feb 6, 2015 15:21:29 GMT -5
Manson chose his followers carefully. They were not self sufficient, at least they were not in their own minds. They were druggies, Joseph. And yet they were held equally responsible for the killings. Because they were druggies? I think not. The drugs they took aren't the kind that propel otherwise non-violent people to acts of murder. No, but I would bet you it was the kind that made them easy to manipulate and made them easy targets for Charlie's BS.
|
|