Jessiealan
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Post by Jessiealan on Jan 31, 2015 11:02:07 GMT -5
Onward to Capital Punishment discussion! This is a prime example of "why not". Only to those who are opposed to capital punishment anyway. If this guy had been executed, the taxpayers would have saved $6 million. Surely no one wants to see the innocent executed, even the fiscal conservatives.
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ladylinda
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Post by ladylinda on Jan 31, 2015 14:28:00 GMT -5
Only to those who are opposed to capital punishment anyway. If this guy had been executed, the taxpayers would have saved $6 million. Surely no one wants to see the innocent executed, even the fiscal conservatives. Jessie, of course I don't want to see innocent people executed but I don't want to see guilty people get away with it either. ANY punishment can mean punishing the innocent. I wish anti-death penalty advocates in the US were a MILLIONTH as focused on the wrongly imprisoned ones serving LWOP but somehow they just don't bother unless there's a threat of execution. Prison reform is a must because the US prison system is a flagrant violation of the Thirteenth Amendment (I think it was the thirteenth that abolished slavery but I'm doing it from memory and might be wrong).
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ladylinda
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Post by ladylinda on Jan 31, 2015 14:32:16 GMT -5
I think it is, Lin. Anytime an innocent party is convicted of murder - whether they are serving time on Death Row or in a life sentence, it's an example of why not kill others convicted of murder. This man got his life back- minus 2 decades. With the death penalty they lose everything. But, then I'm sure you recognize that and apparently don't care. I don't think it's a question of 'don't care,' Anna; I might as well say you 'don't care' about guilty murderers walking free. Both statements would be untrue descriptions of our positions. But I'm a realist - mistakes (let alone corruption) have been made and will be. But whatever form of punishment you have will sometimes run the risk of punishing innocent people. And there are plenty of wrongly imprisoned and subsequently exonerated people who either died or prison or had their lives permanently ruined by it on every level. So it's not like prison was some kind of holiday camp or execution was something only callous sadists support.
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josephdphillips
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Post by josephdphillips on Jan 31, 2015 15:14:44 GMT -5
Surely no one wants to see the innocent executed, even the fiscal conservatives. I don't, but it has happened and will happen. I don't lose any sleep over it. I used to, a long time ago, but I got over it.
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Post by beth on Jan 31, 2015 16:05:43 GMT -5
I think it is, Lin. Anytime an innocent party is convicted of murder - whether they are serving time on Death Row or in a life sentence, it's an example of why not kill others convicted of murder. This man got his life back- minus 2 decades. With the death penalty they lose everything. But, then I'm sure you recognize that and apparently don't care. I don't think it's a question of 'don't care,' Anna; I might as well say you 'don't care' about guilty murderers walking free. Both statements would be untrue descriptions of our positions. But I'm a realist - mistakes (let alone corruption) have been made and will be. But whatever form of punishment you have will sometimes run the risk of punishing innocent people. And there are plenty of wrongly imprisoned and subsequently exonerated people who either died or prison or had their lives permanently ruined by it on every level. So it's not like prison was some kind of holiday camp or execution was something only callous sadists support. No, but it's the best option we have for a serious degree of punishment that, however, leaves room for hope when it comes to the innocent who are convicted and serving a sentence.
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Post by beth on Jan 31, 2015 16:14:52 GMT -5
Surely no one wants to see the innocent executed, even the fiscal conservatives. Jessie, of course I don't want to see innocent people executed but I don't want to see guilty people get away with it either. ANY punishment can mean punishing the innocent. I wish anti-death penalty advocates in the US were a MILLIONTH as focused on the wrongly imprisoned ones serving LWOP but somehow they just don't bother unless there's a threat of execution. Prison reform is a must because the US prison system is a flagrant violation of the Thirteenth Amendment (I think it was the thirteenth that abolished slavery but I'm doing it from memory and might be wrong). Life in Prison is a far cry from 'getting away with it'.
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Post by mouse on Feb 1, 2015 5:10:24 GMT -5
Jessie, of course I don't want to see innocent people executed but I don't want to see guilty people get away with it either. ANY punishment can mean punishing the innocent. I wish anti-death penalty advocates in the US were a MILLIONTH as focused on the wrongly imprisoned ones serving LWOP but somehow they just don't bother unless there's a threat of execution. Prison reform is a must because the US prison system is a flagrant violation of the Thirteenth Amendment (I think it was the thirteenth that abolished slavery but I'm doing it from memory and might be wrong). Life in Prison is a far cry from 'getting away with it'. they certainly get away with it in the UK..two of the vilest of females convicted of dreadful murders in the UK..the only punishment they appear to have received is to be taken out of society...in prison they had all the comforts of home in fact they have MORE than the comforts of home...and its absolutely 100% wrong outings lovers hairdressers educational facilities pretty cells..individual décor etc etc no worries of how to pay bills meals cooked warmth provided....hardly punishment for two of the most evil women in the UK..
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Post by beth on Feb 1, 2015 14:00:11 GMT -5
Life in Prison is a far cry from 'getting away with it'. they certainly get away with it in the UK..two of the vilest of females convicted of dreadful murders in the UK..the only punishment they appear to have received is to be taken out of society...in prison they had all the comforts of home in fact they have MORE than the comforts of home...and its absolutely 100% wrong outings lovers hairdressers educational facilities pretty cells..individual décor etc etc no worries of how to pay bills meals cooked warmth provided....hardly punishment for two of the most evil women in the UK.. I agree .. 100% wrnog. At least they keep them off the streets.
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ladylinda
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Post by ladylinda on Feb 1, 2015 14:04:51 GMT -5
Jessie, of course I don't want to see innocent people executed but I don't want to see guilty people get away with it either. ANY punishment can mean punishing the innocent. I wish anti-death penalty advocates in the US were a MILLIONTH as focused on the wrongly imprisoned ones serving LWOP but somehow they just don't bother unless there's a threat of execution. Prison reform is a must because the US prison system is a flagrant violation of the Thirteenth Amendment (I think it was the thirteenth that abolished slavery but I'm doing it from memory and might be wrong). Life in Prison is a far cry from 'getting away with it'. I didn't mean to give the impression that I thought it was. I was talking about guilty people who were declared innocent when I made the comment about getting away with it.
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ladylinda
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Post by ladylinda on Feb 1, 2015 14:07:23 GMT -5
I don't think it's a question of 'don't care,' Anna; I might as well say you 'don't care' about guilty murderers walking free. Both statements would be untrue descriptions of our positions. But I'm a realist - mistakes (let alone corruption) have been made and will be. But whatever form of punishment you have will sometimes run the risk of punishing innocent people. And there are plenty of wrongly imprisoned and subsequently exonerated people who either died or prison or had their lives permanently ruined by it on every level. So it's not like prison was some kind of holiday camp or execution was something only callous sadists support. No, but it's the best option we have for a serious degree of punishment that, however, leaves room for hope when it comes to the innocent who are convicted and serving a sentence. Again I come back to the fact that a TINY percentage of people convicted of murder ARE innocent. What sane person doubts the guilt of Charles Manson, Richard Ramirez, Peter Sutcliffe, Ian Brady, Ian Huntley, Beverley Allitt or Christa Pike? What possible pretence of 'innocence' justifies NOT executing them?
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josephdphillips
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Post by josephdphillips on Feb 1, 2015 16:18:38 GMT -5
What sane person doubts the guilt of Charles Manson, Richard Ramirez, Peter Sutcliffe, Ian Brady, Ian Huntley, Beverley Allitt or Christa Pike? The guilt of Manson is open to debate, since he never actually killed anyone.
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Jessiealan
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Post by Jessiealan on Feb 1, 2015 18:08:48 GMT -5
What sane person doubts the guilt of Charles Manson, Richard Ramirez, Peter Sutcliffe, Ian Brady, Ian Huntley, Beverley Allitt or Christa Pike? The guilt of Manson is open to debate, since he never actually killed anyone. Oh but he had control over those drug-addled young people and told them to commit the murders - 5 or 6 of them. How can you doubt his guilt?
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josephdphillips
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Post by josephdphillips on Feb 2, 2015 8:56:36 GMT -5
he had control over those drug-addled young people and told them to commit the murders - 5 or 6 of them. How can you doubt his guilt? I don't, but the legal theory is still questionable. I doubt he'd be convicted under that theory today. In fact, a few years later Patty Hearst argued she was induced to commit bank robbery, and the jury didn't buy it.
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Post by beth on Feb 2, 2015 11:58:41 GMT -5
he had control over those drug-addled young people and told them to commit the murders - 5 or 6 of them. How can you doubt his guilt? I don't, but the legal theory is still questionable. I doubt he'd be convicted under that theory today. In fact, a few years later Patty Hearst argued she was induced to commit bank robbery, and the jury didn't buy it. But Joseph, Hearst wasn't the master mind. Wasn't she an example of Stockholm Syndrome?
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josephdphillips
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Post by josephdphillips on Feb 2, 2015 13:36:17 GMT -5
Hearst wasn't the master mind. Wasn't she an example of Stockholm Syndrome? That was the claim. It didn't work as a legal strategy. I'm just saying the prosecution of Manson himself was unique. I'm not aware of a similar prosecution in California in the last forty years.
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