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Post by fretslider on Jul 19, 2012 11:15:53 GMT -5
I'm familiar with both the drug, and the trip to the vet. How much do you want to bet that there won't be any Eighth Amendment (cruel and unusual punishment) cases"? www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/07/18/UN-expert-Ga-Texas-executions-illegal/UPI-64501342593000/www.sacbee.com/2012/07/13/4629896/la-judge-hears-testimony-one-drug.htmlTexas is the nation's most active death penalty state. Since 1976, Texas has performed the highest number of executions (483) with the next next closest being Virginia (109). This should make it even easier for those good old boys in Texas. We're the only "civilized" country still exicuting our own people. www.abpnews.com/blog/public-policy/should-we-abolish-the-death-penalty-2012-07-19/"The worldwide trend is away from the death penalty. In 2000, 31 countries carried out an execution. In 2011, 20 countries did. According to Mr. Ban, about 150 countries have either abolished the death penalty or are no longer practicing it. But almost a third of the world’s nations still have the death penalty. China executes hundreds if not thousands of people a year, more than all other countries combined. In 2011 the countries other than China with the most executions were Iran (360), Saudi Arabia (82), Iraq (68), and the United States (43). The United States is the only G-8 country with the death penalty. In North America and Europe only one other country, Belarus, has the death penalty. However, the trend in the United States is away from the death penalty. In 2000, 38 states had the death penalty. In 2012, 34 states have it. In 2000, 224 persons were sentenced to death in the United States. In 2011, 78 persons were sentenced to death. In 2000, 85 persons were executed in the United States. In 2011, 43 persons were executed."www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issues/death-penalty/us-death-penalty-facts"Capital punishment does not work. There is a wealth of mounting evidence that proves this fact. The death penalty, both in the U.S. and around the world, is discriminatory and is used disproportionately against the poor, minorities and members of racial, ethnic and religious communities. Since humans are fallible, the risk of executing the innocent can never be eliminated. Furthermore, the astronomical costs associated with putting a person on death row – including criminal investigations, lengthy trials and appeals – are leading many states to re-evaluate and re-consider having this flawed and unjust system on the books."Read away... unless your mind is already made up. Thank you for the links. I have no problem with executing murderers where there is absolutely no doubt as to their guilt. However, I did the tour of Williamsburg a few years ago - if you were sentenced to death you got 10 days to put your affairs in order, then you swung. Lesson from history there? But the problem, Mark, is we can never be sure. So many would have been strung up erroneously. It's a barbaric practice best left in the 7th century.
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Post by markindurham on Jul 19, 2012 12:51:31 GMT -5
But the problem, Mark, is we can never be sure. So many would have been strung up erroneously. It's a barbaric practice best left in the 7th century. Oh, you know that's not true But we'll not cover old ground again, eh? Hindley, Brady, Nielsen, Sutcliffe, Shipman, West (x2) etc - all these should have taken the short walk & long drop - cheap and effective
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Post by mouse on Jul 22, 2012 2:42:00 GMT -5
But the problem, Mark, is we can never be sure. So many would have been strung up erroneously. It's a barbaric practice best left in the 7th century. Oh, you know that's not true But we'll not cover old ground again, eh? Hindley, Brady, Nielsen, Sutcliffe, Shipman, West (x2) etc - all these should have taken the short walk & long drop - cheap and effective absolutely correct Mark..where there is no doubt what ever hang or shoot the vermin
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Post by fretslider on Jul 22, 2012 4:42:26 GMT -5
But the problem, Mark, is we can never be sure. So many would have been strung up erroneously. It's a barbaric practice best left in the 7th century. Oh, you know that's not true But we'll not cover old ground again, eh? Hindley, Brady, Nielsen, Sutcliffe, Shipman, West (x2) etc - all these should have taken the short walk & long drop - cheap and effective Methinks you protest a little too much Guildford Four, Birmingham 6, Bridgwater 4, The M25 3 etc Sally Clark, Frank Wilkinson, Sam Hallam, Stefan Kiszko, Sean Hodgson, Stephen Downing, Barry George etc etc etc Remember how they tried to fit-up Colin Stagg? We still have policemen like Simon Harwood in the ranks And this is what happens when you are so sure.... Timothy Evans, 25, was hanged for the murder of his wife and daughter. Deemed to be of low intelligence, the Welsh van driver with an IQ of 70 apparently "confessed" to killing his wife Beryl and their 14-month-old daughter Geraldine. Three years after his execution, former neighbour John Christie confessed to strangling eight victims - including Mrs Evans and Geraldine. So what can we do for Evans? Dig his bones up and apologise? Why 'dig-up' old ground, indeed.
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Post by markindurham on Jul 22, 2012 9:17:58 GMT -5
Oh, you know that's not true But we'll not cover old ground again, eh? Hindley, Brady, Nielsen, Sutcliffe, Shipman, West (x2) etc - all these should have taken the short walk & long drop - cheap and effective Methinks you protest a little too much Guildford Four, Birmingham 6, Bridgwater 4, The M25 3 etc Sally Clark, Frank Wilkinson, Sam Hallam, Stefan Kiszko, Sean Hodgson, Stephen Downing, Barry George etc etc etc Remember how they tried to fit-up Colin Stagg? We still have policemen like Simon Harwood in the ranks And this is what happens when you are so sure.... Timothy Evans, 25, was hanged for the murder of his wife and daughter. Deemed to be of low intelligence, the Welsh van driver with an IQ of 70 apparently "confessed" to killing his wife Beryl and their 14-month-old daughter Geraldine. Three years after his execution, former neighbour John Christie confessed to strangling eight victims - including Mrs Evans and Geraldine. So what can we do for Evans? Dig his bones up and apologise? Why 'dig-up' old ground, indeed. M'yes, however I did say that if there was NO doubt - and the examples I gave were just that. Huntley is another one to add to the list, of course...
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Post by fretslider on Jul 22, 2012 16:30:00 GMT -5
Methinks you protest a little too much Guildford Four, Birmingham 6, Bridgwater 4, The M25 3 etc Sally Clark, Frank Wilkinson, Sam Hallam, Stefan Kiszko, Sean Hodgson, Stephen Downing, Barry George etc etc etc Remember how they tried to fit-up Colin Stagg? We still have policemen like Simon Harwood in the ranks And this is what happens when you are so sure.... Timothy Evans, 25, was hanged for the murder of his wife and daughter. Deemed to be of low intelligence, the Welsh van driver with an IQ of 70 apparently "confessed" to killing his wife Beryl and their 14-month-old daughter Geraldine. Three years after his execution, former neighbour John Christie confessed to strangling eight victims - including Mrs Evans and Geraldine. So what can we do for Evans? Dig his bones up and apologise? Why 'dig-up' old ground, indeed. M'yes, however I did say that if there was NO doubt - and the examples I gave were just that. Huntley is another one to add to the list, of course... I get that, Mark, but at the time these innocents were jailed for murder they had been convicted 'beyond reasonable doubt', ergo they would have been killed. At least this way they are still alive and can be released even though we can't give them up to 25 years back.
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Post by akamai on Jul 22, 2012 22:24:13 GMT -5
M'yes, however I did say that if there was NO doubt - and the examples I gave were just that. Huntley is another one to add to the list, of course... I get that, Mark, but at the time these innocents were jailed for murder they had been convicted 'beyond reasonable doubt', ergo they would have been killed. At least this way they are still alive and can be released even though we can't give them up to 25 years back. Hi Fretslider, Not only you cannot give them back the years they lose, but you also cannot take back the punishment of incarceration, and that is IF you happen to find them innocent after all that time. While you may find some of the DR people who were exonerated because of proven innocence, there must be a LOT more innocents who died from incarceration because they were not sentenced to death. The problem isn't the punishment. The problem is the wrongful conviction. Just because you have people wrongfully convicted and punished, you should not abolish punishments for crime, whether it is death OR incarceration. Ak
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Post by markindurham on Jul 23, 2012 3:29:10 GMT -5
M'yes, however I did say that if there was NO doubt - and the examples I gave were just that. Huntley is another one to add to the list, of course... I get that, Mark, but at the time these innocents were jailed for murder they had been convicted 'beyond reasonable doubt', ergo they would have been killed. At least this way they are still alive and can be released even though we can't give them up to 25 years back. Quite so; however we have now moved on a long way with forensic science, and there is not the old-fashioned "Gene Hunt" style of 'fitting up' someone, at least not in murder investigations - as a consequence of the aforementioned advances in science
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Post by fretslider on Jul 23, 2012 7:12:31 GMT -5
I get that, Mark, but at the time these innocents were jailed for murder they had been convicted 'beyond reasonable doubt', ergo they would have been killed. At least this way they are still alive and can be released even though we can't give them up to 25 years back. Quite so; however we have now moved on a long way with forensic science, and there is not the old-fashioned "Gene Hunt" style of 'fitting up' someone, at least not in murder investigations - as a consequence of the aforementioned advances in science Forensics are no guarantee, DNA can be planted... "Scientists have shown it is possible to fake DNA evidence, potentially undermining the credibility of the key forensic technique. Using equipment found in labs up and down the country, they obliterated all traces of DNA from a blood sample and added someone else's genetic material in its place. The swap was so successful it fooled scientists who carry out DNA fingerprinting for U.S. courts." Of course, I can't say how reliable US courts are.
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Post by thunder on Jul 23, 2012 7:37:29 GMT -5
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Post by markindurham on Jul 23, 2012 9:57:00 GMT -5
Quite so; however we have now moved on a long way with forensic science, and there is not the old-fashioned "Gene Hunt" style of 'fitting up' someone, at least not in murder investigations - as a consequence of the aforementioned advances in science Forensics are no guarantee, DNA can be planted... "Scientists have shown it is possible to fake DNA evidence, potentially undermining the credibility of the key forensic technique. Using equipment found in labs up and down the country, they obliterated all traces of DNA from a blood sample and added someone else's genetic material in its place. The swap was so successful it fooled scientists who carry out DNA fingerprinting for U.S. courts." Of course, I can't say how reliable US courts are. Ah yes, that old chestnut, that DNA evidence trumps everything else... Even the CSI franchise has now covered THAT one, I seem to recall DNA evidence is just part of the story
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Post by markindurham on Jul 23, 2012 10:03:05 GMT -5
Which is the sort of thing that I was alluding to before - the 'establishment' manipulating evidence to 'fit someone up'. Failure to disclose evidence from the other side is a serious business; one would hope that anyone doing that is dealt with harshly Edit - trypping error
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Post by fretslider on Jul 23, 2012 11:16:20 GMT -5
Which is the sort of thing that I was alluding to before - the 'establishment' manipulating evidence to 'fit someone up'. Failure to disclose evidence from the other side is a serious business; one would hope that anyone doing that is dealt with harshly Edit - trypping error It's a vain hope. Mark. The police are as bent as ever and always will be.
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Post by markindurham on Jul 23, 2012 11:29:51 GMT -5
Which is the sort of thing that I was alluding to before - the 'establishment' manipulating evidence to 'fit someone up'. Failure to disclose evidence from the other side is a serious business; one would hope that anyone doing that is dealt with harshly Edit - trypping error It's a vain hope. Mark. The police are as bent as ever and always will be. Only if we let them - we still have 'policing by consent' - just...
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Post by fretslider on Jul 23, 2012 11:30:50 GMT -5
It's a vain hope. Mark. The police are as bent as ever and always will be. Only if we let them - we still have 'policing by consent' - just... Well, I wish I shared your optimism. One need only look at the outcome of the Tomlinson case....
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