josephdphillips
Global Facilitator
January 2015 Member of the Month
Posts: 3,494
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Post by josephdphillips on Mar 6, 2018 10:03:24 GMT -5
Whose presumption? The lawyers? The judges? Who? The fifth, sixth and fourteenth amendments to the U.S. Constitution. A presumption of innocence precludes belief in the veracity of a mere accusation.
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Post by fretslider on Mar 6, 2018 11:03:19 GMT -5
Like I said, beth, some are prepared to do whatever it takes. 20 years on, who knows. They may see another opportunity.As in "once an opportunist, always an opportunist"? I'll give it some thought. She came from a highly dysfunctional family. I'd say she was messed up long before she got to Hollywood.
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Post by Dex on Mar 6, 2018 16:12:04 GMT -5
Whose presumption? The lawyers? The judges? Who? The fifth, sixth and fourteenth amendments to the U.S. Constitution. A presumption of innocence precludes belief in the veracity of a mere accusation. That's to prevent cases being tried in the court of public opinion. It's too late for that in some of these, Weinstein and Spacey for example. If they are innocent, they might at least keep from going to jail with a good lawyer.
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Post by Scottish Lassie on Mar 6, 2018 19:46:08 GMT -5
Many women use their sexuality to boost their careers. That is why few spoke out at the time. It is always long after the event when they have made their fortune and their own sexuality is worthless. The youbg aspiring stars, they are not complaining are they? so you alleging that no woman ever gets harassed of sexually assaulted.. touched up or verbally sexually assaulted .no man ever unzipped his pants or groped or made lewed sugestions next you will be telling us women only get what they have asked for.. that its all the womans fault that men attack sexually every where from places of work.. schools... theatres even just standing at a bus stop.. that no man has ever foisted himself on a woman who was unwilling .....mmmmm I grew up thinking that sex was on a man's mind 24/7.
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Post by kronks on Mar 7, 2018 2:44:42 GMT -5
Many women use their sexuality to boost their careers. That is why few spoke out at the time. It is always long after the event when they have made their fortune and their own sexuality is worthless. The youbg aspiring stars, they are not complaining are they? so you alleging that no woman ever gets harassed of sexually assaulted.. touched up or verbally sexually assaulted .no man ever unzipped his pants or groped or made lewed sugestions next you will be telling us women only get what they have asked for.. that its all the womans fault that men attack sexually every where from places of work.. schools... theatres even just standing at a bus stop.. that no man has ever foisted himself on a woman who was unwilling .....mmmmm No that is just your over active and erroneous imagination at work again. There are already laws against all those things so what the hell are they whinging about??? What do they want? All men locked up "just in case"?? LOL crazy bunch of loonies. As it happens most victims of crime are MEN NOT WOMEN. You would not think that to listen to the news or politicians or read the papers, no mention of crime against men, it is like they are second class citizens and the reality is men are second class citizens. All we here is this selfish bile from upper middle class man hating feminists, mainly white women of course, your Emma Watson who totally dismissed black men at the Oscars, what hypocrite she is, I hate her.. being so vile she is fairly safe from being raped herself LOL!!! I am just fed up with a constant stream of this obviously Looney crap coming from the corrupt elite run media. IT IS SICKENING!! Emma Watson should be in jail for crime against humanity, the privileged idiot! Apart from that she is fine LOL!!!!!!!!!!!! Good job men have a sense of humour they certainly need one in this world!
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Post by kronks on Mar 7, 2018 2:46:04 GMT -5
so you alleging that no woman ever gets harassed of sexually assaulted.. touched up or verbally sexually assaulted .no man ever unzipped his pants or groped or made lewed sugestions next you will be telling us women only get what they have asked for.. that its all the womans fault that men attack sexually every where from places of work.. schools... theatres even just standing at a bus stop.. that no man has ever foisted himself on a woman who was unwilling .....mmmmm I grew up thinking that sex was on a man's mind 24/7. Not really we do have to sleep part of the time!
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Post by mouse on Mar 7, 2018 4:23:59 GMT -5
so you alleging that no woman ever gets harassed of sexually assaulted.. touched up or verbally sexually assaulted .no man ever unzipped his pants or groped or made lewed sugestions next you will be telling us women only get what they have asked for.. that its all the womans fault that men attack sexually every where from places of work.. schools... theatres even just standing at a bus stop.. that no man has ever foisted himself on a woman who was unwilling .....mmmmm No that is just your over active and erroneous imagination at work again. There are already laws against all those things so what the hell are they whinging about??? What do they want? All men locked up "just in case"?? LOL crazy bunch of loonies. As it happens most victims of crime are MEN NOT WOMEN. You would not think that to listen to the news or politicians or read the papers, no mention of crime against men, it is like they are second class citizens and the reality is men are second class citizens. All we here is this selfish bile from upper middle class man hating feminists, mainly white women of course, your Emma Watson who totally dismissed black men at the Oscars, what hypocrite she is, I hate her.. being so vile she is fairly safe from being raped herself LOL!!! I am just fed up with a constant stream of this obviously Looney crap coming from the corrupt elite run media. IT IS SICKENING!! Emma Watson should be in jail for crime against humanity, the privileged idiot! Apart from that she is fine LOL!!!!!!!!!!!! Good job men have a sense of humour they certainly need one in this world! kronks wrote """""All we here is this selfish bile from upper middle class man hating feminists, mainly white women of course, your Emma Watson who totally dismissed black men at the Oscars, what hypocrite she is, I hate her..""" ah right so its only white middle class man hating feminists to get attacked by letcherous males with issues or who are well past their prime I shoul;d have known it was all the fault of some rich elite .. though I cannot be bothered to look up the back grounds of victims or agressors .. given the pasts of those who have gone before who also complained of sexual harresment my betting is some good old fashioned working class girls and boys are in the mix far far removed from any whiff of elitism don't see what race has to do with anything either.. Crosby springs to mind .. sexual abuse crosses all races and ethenticities and social levels ages and educational standards .. in war in peace in poverty and in wealth sexual abuse stalks through the centuries of human relationships
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Post by kronks on Mar 8, 2018 2:21:54 GMT -5
No that is just your over active and erroneous imagination at work again. There are already laws against all those things so what the hell are they whinging about??? What do they want? All men locked up "just in case"?? LOL crazy bunch of loonies. As it happens most victims of crime are MEN NOT WOMEN. You would not think that to listen to the news or politicians or read the papers, no mention of crime against men, it is like they are second class citizens and the reality is men are second class citizens. All we here is this selfish bile from upper middle class man hating feminists, mainly white women of course, your Emma Watson who totally dismissed black men at the Oscars, what hypocrite she is, I hate her.. being so vile she is fairly safe from being raped herself LOL!!! I am just fed up with a constant stream of this obviously Looney crap coming from the corrupt elite run media. IT IS SICKENING!! Emma Watson should be in jail for crime against humanity, the privileged idiot! Apart from that she is fine LOL!!!!!!!!!!!! Good job men have a sense of humour they certainly need one in this world! kronks wrote """""All we here is this selfish bile from upper middle class man hating feminists, mainly white women of course, your Emma Watson who totally dismissed black men at the Oscars, what hypocrite she is, I hate her..""" ah right so its only white middle class man hating feminists to get attacked by letcherous males with issues or who are well past their prime I shoul;d have known it was all the fault of some rich elite .. though I cannot be bothered to look up the back grounds of victims or agressors .. given the pasts of those who have gone before who also complained of sexual harresment my betting is some good old fashioned working class girls and boys are in the mix far far removed from any whiff of elitism don't see what race has to do with anything either.. Crosby springs to mind .. sexual abuse crosses all races and ethenticities and social levels ages and educational standards .. in war in peace in poverty and in wealth sexual abuse stalks through the centuries of human relationships Any woman who gets attacked has the full protection of the law. And of course a woman going alone to Harvey flat in the even is well putting herself in harms way, I would not say "asking for it it", but there is such a thing as common sense and personal responsibility. Anyhow it is people in power of all types who abuse it. But is far easier to attack men in general than the elite hence all men are blamed for the actions of the elite. And of course women do tend to have a tendency to hang around rich and powerful men one has to wonder why?
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Post by mouse on Mar 8, 2018 4:48:03 GMT -5
kronks wrote """""All we here is this selfish bile from upper middle class man hating feminists, mainly white women of course, your Emma Watson who totally dismissed black men at the Oscars, what hypocrite she is, I hate her..""" ah right so its only white middle class man hating feminists to get attacked by letcherous males with issues or who are well past their prime I shoul;d have known it was all the fault of some rich elite .. though I cannot be bothered to look up the back grounds of victims or agressors .. given the pasts of those who have gone before who also complained of sexual harresment my betting is some good old fashioned working class girls and boys are in the mix far far removed from any whiff of elitism don't see what race has to do with anything either.. Crosby springs to mind .. sexual abuse crosses all races and ethenticities and social levels ages and educational standards .. in war in peace in poverty and in wealth sexual abuse stalks through the centuries of human relationships Any woman who gets attacked has the full protection of the law. And of course a woman going alone to Harvey flat in the even is well putting herself in harms way, I would not say "asking for it it", but there is such a thing as common sense and personal responsibility. Anyhow it is people in power of all types who abuse it. But is far easier to attack men in general than the elite hence all men are blamed for the actions of the elite. And of course women do tend to have a tendency to hang around rich and powerful men one has to wonder why? """"Any woman who gets attacked has the full protection of the law.""" true but some times the difficulty in actually proving attack physical or verbal is very difficult ...and in the case of Hw were aware enough to warn women going to his office .. the fact his staff were aware should count for some thing if only habit """"And of course a woman going alone to Harvey flat in the even is well putting herself in harms way, I would not say "asking for it it", but there is such a thing as common sense and personal responsibility."""i will agree 100%about commonsense and personal responsibility .. but and its not always as close cut as that,... it would appear the HW would often have a suite of rooms from which he worked as well as lived and the unsuspecting would go expecting an office room or just a sitting room only to find them selves in a very different situation where not even a pretence a real interview...and of course no sign of any office staff """Anyhow it is people in power of all types who abuse it.""" of course its an abuse of power and of course we are all very well aware of the abuses particularily sexual abuses which come with power B""""ut is far easier to attack men in general than the elite hence all men are blamed for the actions of the elite.""" when a woman is being sexually abused and harassed I doubt very much she is concenrned whether its the forman at the packing factory or m,lud at the crown court .... the whole point is that it is mnen in general who actually do harrassas and sexually abuse women.. it is far for being the province of some mythical elite.. and to think so is really rather self defeating by not looking at the problem honestly .. making it some sort of elitist problem is madness.. because itv happens in factories and offices across the land /continent/planet its an occupation older than recorded history its self I personally and those I know would never attack all men for some thing some men do after all I am not... nor are my friemds ultra fems and we are wives/mothers of sons/ and grandmothers of sons along with having sons in laws brothers and uncles etc etc .. so most women will not blame all men but what we do recognise is that some men do abuse physically and sexually and verbally and usually they are nothing more than arrogant or pathtic men lacking in either self estemm or lacking in the sexual areas in the case of HW it is said to be penile dysfunction .. some men cannot perform adequately with out some type of violence .. hence rapists and most real women[rather than idiotic fems and rightons ] what most women know is that males and females are quite quite different ...VIVE LA DIFFERENCE """And of course women do tend to have a tendency to hang around rich and powerful men one has to wonder why?""" some women do hang around the rich or famous..for the reflected glory or the access it gives them to what theyu perceive as the good life ... but what a price they pay and of course its the same vice versa the nice looking young boy on the arm of some one old e ough to be his mother.. again a price is paid .. but that is their problem no one elses
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Post by Scottish Lassie on Mar 8, 2018 4:53:15 GMT -5
I grew up thinking that sex was on a man's mind 24/7. Not really we do have to sleep part of the time! When the couple are married then ofcourse sleep is always welcome, that's for sure. Take that anyway you like LOL.
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Post by Scottish Lassie on Mar 8, 2018 20:24:22 GMT -5
kronks wrote """""All we hear is this selfish bile from upper middle class man hating feminists, mainly white women of course, your Emm Watson who totally dismissed black men at the Oscars, what hypocrite she is, I hate her..""" ah right so its only white middle class man hating feminists to get attacked by letcherous males with issues or who are well past their prime I shoul;d have known it was all the fault of some rich elite .. though I cannot be bothered to look up the back grounds of victims or agressors .. given the pasts of those who have gone before who also complained of sexual harresment my betting is some good old fashioned working class girls and boys are in the mix far far removed from any whiff of elitism don't see what race has to do with anything either.. Crosby springs to mind .. sexual abuse crosses all races and ethenticities and social levels ages and educational standards .. in war in peace in poverty and in wealth sexual abuse stalks through the centuries of human relationships Any woman who gets attacked has the full protection of the law. And of course a woman going alone to Harvey flat in the even is well putting herself in harms way, I would not say "asking for it it", but there is such a thing as common sense and personal responsibility. Anyhow it is people in power of all types who abuse it. But is far easier to attack men in general than the elite hence all men are blamed for the actions of the elite. And of course women do tend to have a tendency to hang around rich and powerful men one has to wonder why? You have surprised me Kronks, I didn't expect you to say that you hated Emma Watson. We may hate some of the things that are happening, butGod loves us all. It is the way that we choose to behave that is not liked, surely you haven't forgotten that?We are even instructed to love our enemies. We learn something from each person we interact with and from the Holy Spirit if we happen to be listening to that small, still voice.
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Post by kronks on Mar 9, 2018 1:53:16 GMT -5
Any woman who gets attacked has the full protection of the law. And of course a woman going alone to Harvey flat in the even is well putting herself in harms way, I would not say "asking for it it", but there is such a thing as common sense and personal responsibility. Anyhow it is people in power of all types who abuse it. But is far easier to attack men in general than the elite hence all men are blamed for the actions of the elite. And of course women do tend to have a tendency to hang around rich and powerful men one has to wonder why? """"Any woman who gets attacked has the full protection of the law.""" true but some times the difficulty in actually proving attack physical or verbal is very difficult ...and in the case of Hw were aware enough to warn women going to his office .. the fact his staff were aware should count for some thing if only habit """"And of course a woman going alone to Harvey flat in the even is well putting herself in harms way, I would not say "asking for it it", but there is such a thing as common sense and personal responsibility."""i will agree 100%about commonsense and personal responsibility .. but and its not always as close cut as that,... it would appear the HW would often have a suite of rooms from which he worked as well as lived and the unsuspecting would go expecting an office room or just a sitting room only to find them selves in a very different situation where not even a pretence a real interview...and of course no sign of any office staff """Anyhow it is people in power of all types who abuse it.""" of course its an abuse of power and of course we are all very well aware of the abuses particularily sexual abuses which come with power B""""ut is far easier to attack men in general than the elite hence all men are blamed for the actions of the elite.""" when a woman is being sexually abused and harassed I doubt very much she is concenrned whether its the forman at the packing factory or m,lud at the crown court .... the whole point is that it is mnen in general who actually do harrassas and sexually abuse women.. it is far for being the province of some mythical elite.. and to think so is really rather self defeating by not looking at the problem honestly .. making it some sort of elitist problem is madness.. because itv happens in factories and offices across the land /continent/planet its an occupation older than recorded history its self I personally and those I know would never attack all men for some thing some men do after all I am not... nor are my friemds ultra fems and we are wives/mothers of sons/ and grandmothers of sons along with having sons in laws brothers and uncles etc etc .. so most women will not blame all men but what we do recognise is that some men do abuse physically and sexually and verbally and usually they are nothing more than arrogant or pathtic men lacking in either self estemm or lacking in the sexual areas in the case of HW it is said to be penile dysfunction .. some men cannot perform adequately with out some type of violence .. hence rapists and most real women[rather than idiotic fems and rightons ] what most women know is that males and females are quite quite different ...VIVE LA DIFFERENCE """And of course women do tend to have a tendency to hang around rich and powerful men one has to wonder why?""" some women do hang around the rich or famous..for the reflected glory or the access it gives them to what theyu perceive as the good life ... but what a price they pay and of course its the same vice versa the nice looking young boy on the arm of some one old e ough to be his mother.. again a price is paid .. but that is their problem no one elses It is more often the men in power because they know their power allows them to get away with a lot more than the average tom dick or harry, it is a lot easier to tell peers or subordinates to f-off than it is the boss as doing the latter will like mean end of career etc... Yea so the elite are never going to attack their own eliteness, which is the root of the problem hence they attack men generally. Same with feminism, it is mainly pushed by elite women who are far better paid than the average man, but that is one inequality they are apparently blind to. The never address the main cause of inequality ie class. That is taboo.
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Post by kronks on Mar 9, 2018 2:03:41 GMT -5
Any woman who gets attacked has the full protection of the law. And of course a woman going alone to Harvey flat in the even is well putting herself in harms way, I would not say "asking for it it", but there is such a thing as common sense and personal responsibility. Anyhow it is people in power of all types who abuse it. But is far easier to attack men in general than the elite hence all men are blamed for the actions of the elite. And of course women do tend to have a tendency to hang around rich and powerful men one has to wonder why? You have surprised me Kronks, I didn't expect you to say that you hated Emma Watson. We may hate some of the things that are happening, butGod loves us all. It is the way that we choose to behave that is not liked, surely you haven't forgotten that?We are even instructed to love our enemies. We learn something from each person we interact with and from the Holy Spirit if we happen to be listening to that small, still voice. Well I guess it is better to say I hate her politics but it is hard to separate the politics form the person. I just can't stand he always doing her martyr but about feminism and all that when she herself is far better off and far more privileged than most men. I guess she is just a bit stupid, you don't need much brains to be an actor/ess, you are told what to say and do lol. I am sure she is well intention but somewhat misguided. She is probably a fairly nice person in reality (lol) she seems a bit snooty though! I don't really know her much as I don't watch films much.
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Post by mouse on Mar 9, 2018 4:13:26 GMT -5
""""Any woman who gets attacked has the full protection of the law.""" true but some times the difficulty in actually proving attack physical or verbal is very difficult ...and in the case of Hw were aware enough to warn women going to his office .. the fact his staff were aware should count for some thing if only habit """"And of course a woman going alone to Harvey flat in the even is well putting herself in harms way, I would not say "asking for it it", but there is such a thing as common sense and personal responsibility."""i will agree 100%about commonsense and personal responsibility .. but and its not always as close cut as that,... it would appear the HW would often have a suite of rooms from which he worked as well as lived and the unsuspecting would go expecting an office room or just a sitting room only to find them selves in a very different situation where not even a pretence a real interview...and of course no sign of any office staff """Anyhow it is people in power of all types who abuse it.""" of course its an abuse of power and of course we are all very well aware of the abuses particularily sexual abuses which come with power B""""ut is far easier to attack men in general than the elite hence all men are blamed for the actions of the elite.""" when a woman is being sexually abused and harassed I doubt very much she is concenrned whether its the forman at the packing factory or m,lud at the crown court .... the whole point is that it is mnen in general who actually do harrassas and sexually abuse women.. it is far for being the province of some mythical elite.. and to think so is really rather self defeating by not looking at the problem honestly .. making it some sort of elitist problem is madness.. because itv happens in factories and offices across the land /continent/planet its an occupation older than recorded history its self I personally and those I know would never attack all men for some thing some men do after all I am not... nor are my friemds ultra fems and we are wives/mothers of sons/ and grandmothers of sons along with having sons in laws brothers and uncles etc etc .. so most women will not blame all men but what we do recognise is that some men do abuse physically and sexually and verbally and usually they are nothing more than arrogant or pathtic men lacking in either self estemm or lacking in the sexual areas in the case of HW it is said to be penile dysfunction .. some men cannot perform adequately with out some type of violence .. hence rapists and most real women[rather than idiotic fems and rightons ] what most women know is that males and females are quite quite different ...VIVE LA DIFFERENCE """And of course women do tend to have a tendency to hang around rich and powerful men one has to wonder why?""" some women do hang around the rich or famous..for the reflected glory or the access it gives them to what theyu perceive as the good life ... but what a price they pay and of course its the same vice versa the nice looking young boy on the arm of some one old e ough to be his mother.. again a price is paid .. but that is their problem no one elses It is more often the men in power because they know their power allows them to get away with a lot more than the average tom dick or harry, it is a lot easier to tell peers or subordinates to f-off than it is the boss as doing the latter will like mean end of career etc... Yea so the elite are never going to attack their own eliteness, which is the root of the problem hence they attack men generally. Same with feminism, it is mainly pushed by elite women who are far better paid than the average man, but that is one inequality they are apparently blind to. The never address the main cause of inequality ie class. That is taboo. i really do wish you would join the rest of the human race ...and have a dose of reality sexual both verbal and physical attacks are not now nor ever have been regulated to one type of male ... it cuts across all educational.. financial ..and all layers in society...and how do we know this as fact... we only have to look at court cases to see the wide variety of attacks and the wide variety of attackers .... now i reaise you live in your own little bubble where publishers of dictionaries have all deffinitions wrong and words can mean what ever you decide they mean and the Pope and all his Cardinals/staff know nothing of Papal history etc etc ... but just for once imagine you are wrong and thatv women.. real bona fide women who have female all their lives and because of that these women know a deal more first hand about sexual abuse and harassment .... from working in a shop or laundry through to girls being flashed at by saddos ... from the confessional box to the madrassa... the army training school to the bike shed of the local comp why do you think sexual abuses and incest are within families... not just some families but families on every level....schools not just some schools but schools on every level why do you think rape/sexual murders cut across all levels and types in society .... the answer is simple .... its sexual and it crosses all levels from the lowest to the highest ... trouble is while there are people like you who want to turn the glare aware from criminal sexuality and turn it into some idiotic political banner then the perpetrators get away with the abuses ... or see it as some childish banner to w... mean while real lives are being ruined and spoiled and sulliedwhile people like you excuse predators and perves
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Post by mouse on Mar 9, 2018 4:34:15 GMT -5
""""Any woman who gets attacked has the full protection of the law.""" true but some times the difficulty in actually proving attack physical or verbal is very difficult ...and in the case of Hw were aware enough to warn women going to his office .. the fact his staff were aware should count for some thing if only habit """"And of course a woman going alone to Harvey flat in the even is well putting herself in harms way, I would not say "asking for it it", but there is such a thing as common sense and personal responsibility."""i will agree 100%about commonsense and personal responsibility .. but and its not always as close cut as that,... it would appear the HW would often have a suite of rooms from which he worked as well as lived and the unsuspecting would go expecting an office room or just a sitting room only to find them selves in a very different situation where not even a pretence a real interview...and of course no sign of any office staff """Anyhow it is people in power of all types who abuse it.""" of course its an abuse of power and of course we are all very well aware of the abuses particularily sexual abuses which come with power B""""ut is far easier to attack men in general than the elite hence all men are blamed for the actions of the elite.""" when a woman is being sexually abused and harassed I doubt very much she is concenrned whether its the forman at the packing factory or m,lud at the crown court .... the whole point is that it is mnen in general who actually do harrassas and sexually abuse women.. it is far for being the province of some mythical elite.. and to think so is really rather self defeating by not looking at the problem honestly .. making it some sort of elitist problem is madness.. because itv happens in factories and offices across the land /continent/planet its an occupation older than recorded history its self I personally and those I know would never attack all men for some thing some men do after all I am not... nor are my friemds ultra fems and we are wives/mothers of sons/ and grandmothers of sons along with having sons in laws brothers and uncles etc etc .. so most women will not blame all men but what we do recognise is that some men do abuse physically and sexually and verbally and usually they are nothing more than arrogant or pathtic men lacking in either self estemm or lacking in the sexual areas in the case of HW it is said to be penile dysfunction .. some men cannot perform adequately with out some type of violence .. hence rapists and most real women[rather than idiotic fems and rightons ] what most women know is that males and females are quite quite different ...VIVE LA DIFFERENCE """And of course women do tend to have a tendency to hang around rich and powerful men one has to wonder why?""" some women do hang around the rich or famous..for the reflected glory or the access it gives them to what theyu perceive as the good life ... but what a price they pay and of course its the same vice versa the nice looking young boy on the arm of some one old e ough to be his mother.. again a price is paid .. but that is their problem no one elses It is more often the men in power because they know their power allows them to get away with a lot more than the average tom dick or harry, it is a lot easier to tell peers or subordinates to f-off than it is the boss as doing the latter will like mean end of career etc... Yea so the elite are never going to attack their own eliteness, which is the root of the problem hence they attack men generally. Same with feminism, it is mainly pushed by elite women who are far better paid than the average man, but that is one inequality they are apparently blind to. The never address the main cause of inequality ie class. That is taboo. what is class and how do its inequalities impact.. is class inherited or learned.. or just absorbed without thinking as we all learn mostly from our parents who are usually the largest influences for both bad and good ... is class nothing more than having different standards... I read some where that being a police man is now defined as middle class... and afterall the middle class who ever they are .. are only a step away from the working class they originated in .... the Middle tons are a good example or a bad example if you like of how class is hardly any great deal these days .. they have made monies wuith out any silver spoon and they have both worked extremely hard because they were an ambitious couple who wanted the best for their children... in fact I would go so far as to say that the Middletons have turned ideas of class and so called inequalities on its head ...by methods which have not required name/background or any great wealth same applied to Sophie Countess of Wessex... again... no wealth no family name no silver spoon etc but they do all have one thing in common ...do you knoiw what that is by the way the Middleton girls were known in some quarters as the ivy sisters..... [you may or may not understand the joke ]
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