|
Post by men an tol on Dec 17, 2015 0:53:18 GMT -5
What does it mean to be human?
In recent postings it has been discussed that genetic engineering is reaching the point where we may reliably change ourselves by eliminating (at least some) physical and mental disabilities (faults?). With that Genie out (or coming out) of the bottle, it is here and we’ll have to deal with the results. Of course, being able to eliminate such as cancer, Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, as well as other things we have had to live with is apparently the reaching of a dream.
Even so, we are all aware these achievements will be accompanied by other possible changes that are maybe not so positive, or at the very least force us to reexamine what it means to be human. Can we use these capabilities to create a perfect human? If so, what is a perfect human? The simple asking of such a question suggests that there are those who are not that perfect human. Oh, we can all think of variations of the human body which are not generally considered perfect, although I suspect that we all might pick different attributes.
Looking at only the seemingly harmless considerations such as going bald. Is this less than perfect or do some consider going bald an acceptable version of being perfect? Does our perceptions of the perfect human change with aging or should being perfect be the same from 15 through ninety? What about something even more simple, such as getting corns on one’s feet or heavy calluses? Could this genetic engineering be used to stop wrinkles? How about eliminating the appendix? Or make knees stay perfect as one ages?
If these capabilities become reachable for nearly all people (and they will) should there be national ethics and morals applied to their use or, should their use be just a decision of the individual with no other consideration?
It often seems that there is no limit to desire of changing one’s body. Things such as tattoos and body piercings can be used very lightly by most who want to do such things, and yet there are some who go far to the extreme and that is quite the decision of the individual. So too with plastic surgery which goes the range of repairing a hair-lip to making the individual into a near gargoyle and, so too with the use of Botox. Or breast enhancement or changing the nose.
I’m not trying to make value judgements as to these practices, but genetic engineering can become an entirely different level of change by establishing that change to be inheritable. I’m guessing that this genetic engineering could be used to eliminated from human variations such as there being midgets after all some people have gone through very painful operations to lengthen their legs and genetic engineering would seemingly be much simpler.
Then there is the possibility of engineering people to better perform specific tasks. I’m sure that someone will consider the possibility of engineering the perfect leader of the nation. Would this engineered leader be different from the average human and in that difference be so far removed from the average human as to not consider the feelings of that average human as important?
I realize that such possibilities will never happen, but if they did surely they would be controlled by our own wisdom?
Again, no value judgement, rather simply suggesting that before we get too far down this possibility we might be better served just to define what is a human being, if we can.
|
|
|
Post by men an tol on Dec 17, 2015 0:54:55 GMT -5
This thread is offered only to see if people are considering these things and if so what are people's thinking about these possibilities.
|
|
josephdphillips
Global Facilitator
January 2015 Member of the Month
Posts: 3,494
|
Post by josephdphillips on Dec 17, 2015 8:22:55 GMT -5
This thread is offered only to see if people are considering these things and if so what are people's thinking about these possibilities. A member of species Homo sapiensThere. I said it.
|
|
|
Post by beth on Dec 17, 2015 11:15:03 GMT -5
Then there is the possibility of engineering people to better perform specific tasks. I’m sure that someone will consider the possibility of engineering the perfect leader of the nation. Would this engineered leader be different from the average human and in that difference be so far removed from the average human as to not consider the feelings of that average human as important?
I realize that such possibilities will never happen, but if they did surely they would be controlled by our own wisdom?
Again, no value judgement, rather simply suggesting that before we get too far down this possibility we might be better served just to define what is a human being, if we can.
Still and all, I wonder whether we can consider the possibilities without making a value judgement of some kind. So much depends on who would be in control at that point. Plus, whether the knowledge, ways and means would be in the hands of medical and scientific institutes or exploiters.
The advances and possibilities should be something wonderful for humankind, but could turn out to be a horror story.
|
|
|
Post by annaj26 on Dec 17, 2015 12:25:29 GMT -5
I read an interesting article about transferring a human brain to an artificial environment and keeping it alive and functioning. Can't find it right now but here's another that is along the same lines. The question is, if they COULD do that, would the working brain be considered human? www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/brain-transplants.html
|
|
|
Post by men an tol on Dec 17, 2015 13:03:50 GMT -5
As Joseph said, we are part of Homo Sapiens, in fact Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Our species has a wide range of capability and adaptability. However, are we at the edge of a new sub division of our species? Could we be at the beginning of developing Homo Sapiens Mega, or, maybe Homo Sapiens Aqua?
For Homo Sapiens Mega, we are aware that some species can regrow lost appendages (such as a tail), could we engineer our species so that the loss of a hand could be corrected by just a regrow of that missing hand? Or, to have a version of Homo Sapiens that can live in the sea (maybe with a set of gills) and the ability to descent more than 150 fathoms without a breathing device and become Homo Sapiens Aqua.
Part of the way we (Homo Sapiens Sapiens) view the world is in our view of time and that is impacted by our ability to remember. We know that some people can remember everything that they ever heard or saw or felt or smelled. What if we could engineer people so that everyone could remember everything, creating Homo Sapiens Animus.
The point is, are such creations still human?
This becomes in my opinion a question of import because today we seem to separate ourselves from other humans quite easily. Now if we create new human variations it would seem easier to make such divisions wider and even more difficult to cross. If this is possible to any degree, what impact would it have on societal relationships?
One thing we can be sure of, if it can be done then it will be done.
How would we make decisions about these possibilities? Forget the current political divisions and simply look at the world leaders, who would you select to make such decisions?
|
|
|
Post by beth on Dec 17, 2015 15:43:16 GMT -5
As Joseph said, we are part of Homo Sapiens, in fact Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Our species has a wide range of capability and adaptability. However, are we at the edge of a new sub division of our species? Could we be at the beginning of developing Homo Sapiens Mega, or, maybe Homo Sapiens Aqua? For Homo Sapiens Mega, we are aware that some species can regrow lost appendages (such as a tail), could we engineer our species so that the loss of a hand could be corrected by just a regrow of that missing hand? Or, to have a version of Homo Sapiens that can live in the sea (maybe with a set of gills) and the ability to descent more than 150 fathoms without a breathing device and become Homo Sapiens Aqua. Part of the way we (Homo Sapiens Sapiens) view the world is in our view of time and that is impacted by our ability to remember. We know that some people can remember everything that they ever heard or saw or felt or smelled. What if we could engineer people so that everyone could remember everything, creating Homo Sapiens Animus. The point is, are such creations still human? This becomes in my opinion a question of import because today we seem to separate ourselves from other humans quite easily. Now if we create new human variations it would seem easier to make such divisions wider and even more difficult to cross. If this is possible to any degree, what impact would it have on societal relationships? One thing we can be sure of, if it can be done then it will be done. How would we make decisions about these possibilities? Forget the current political divisions and simply look at the world leaders, who would you select to make such decisions? None of our current or potential world leaders. I suppose there would need to be a special counsel of some sort ... made up of scientists, doctors, etc., to make those decisions. Not an easy solution in sight.
|
|
josephdphillips
Global Facilitator
January 2015 Member of the Month
Posts: 3,494
|
Post by josephdphillips on Dec 17, 2015 16:43:36 GMT -5
As Joseph said, we are part of Homo Sapiens, in fact Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Our species has a wide range of capability and adaptability. However, are we at the edge of a new sub division of our species? Could we be at the beginning of developing Homo Sapiens Mega, or, maybe Homo Sapiens Aqua? For Homo Sapiens Mega, we are aware that some species can regrow lost appendages (such as a tail), could we engineer our species so that the loss of a hand could be corrected by just a regrow of that missing hand? Or, to have a version of Homo Sapiens that can live in the sea (maybe with a set of gills) and the ability to descent more than 150 fathoms without a breathing device and become Homo Sapiens Aqua. Part of the way we (Homo Sapiens Sapiens) view the world is in our view of time and that is impacted by our ability to remember. We know that some people can remember everything that they ever heard or saw or felt or smelled. What if we could engineer people so that everyone could remember everything, creating Homo Sapiens Animus. The point is, are such creations still human? This becomes in my opinion a question of import because today we seem to separate ourselves from other humans quite easily. Now if we create new human variations it would seem easier to make such divisions wider and even more difficult to cross. If this is possible to any degree, what impact would it have on societal relationships? One thing we can be sure of, if it can be done then it will be done. How would we make decisions about these possibilities? Forget the current political divisions and simply look at the world leaders, who would you select to make such decisions? These are questions for the rich. The rest of us are stuck being what we are. And who would even WANT to remember everything?
|
|
|
Post by Scottish Lassie on Dec 18, 2015 9:02:14 GMT -5
I read an interesting article about transferring a human brain to an artificial environment and keeping it alive and functioning. Can't find it right now but here's another that is along the same lines. The question is, if they COULD do that, would the working brain be considered human? www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/brain-transplants.htmlI think so Annaj26. The brain is still flesh but how would it function without it's senses. Would everything be done by electronic means?
|
|
|
Post by men an tol on Dec 18, 2015 22:22:21 GMT -5
To try to put this into some small degree of perspective. We’re talking about genetic engineering. And at what point (if ever) does performing that capability produce a being that is no longer human. Of course, most people think of visions of the mad scientist in a laboratory putting body parts together. As fun as that may be to think about, it isn’t reality.
We, humans, have been playing around with genetic engineering for thousands of years. We do this in the practice of selective breeding or husbandry to improve various species. That improvement is in our best interests not the species. Maize into corn, wild birds into domesticated hens, wild bovines into domesticated cows. Wild boars into domesticated swine, Village Canines into domesticated dogs, wild cats into domesticated beasts living in our granaries. In truth these planned (and not so planned) alterations in other species have allowed us (these human forms of the primates) to live in communities.
Although few think of it as so, this is genetic engineering and it has serve us well even though slow with observation augmented by a certain amount of luck. Due to these practices our world of today is not the world of our primitive ancestors. It is not even the world of our not so primitive ancestors by learning how to not wait for random mutations to appear but to select and create mutations ourselves.
And yet there have been limitations, just think of the winged horse Pegasus; the lizard of imagination of being a winged dragon. But now in these times our imagination may have no limits. Those same imaginations have created the tools to bring those dreams, or maybe nightmares, to reality. With the advent of inventing things such as the polymerase chain reaction and the development of recombinant DNA techniques, our dreams can become reality.
All we needed to create cross-species hybrids was to cut and paste bits of genetic sequence from one organism’s DNA into that of another. And now, we can do this with genes of the same organism of the same type (cisgenic organisms). We can also now add in genes from quite different sorts of organisms (transgenic organisms).
The point is that we ‘can do’ these things. For example, it is possible to consider a created species of corn resistant to all disease, even resistant to pests. Maybe never requiring pesticides or herbicides. We’ve already begun these efforts. Are these new forms of corn still corn, are they still descendants of that long ago maize?
Even though these efforts increase our world food supplies far beyond the imaginations of just two or three generations ago so that producing enough food to feed the world is not an unreachable dream. Andy yet, there are many who find this human planned world to be frightening, even for some a nightmare of danger. It is no wonder that using this knowledge to address problems of humans can be of deep concern to some in our world society.
So, before trying to decide the efficacy of doing this to humans it would seem reasonable have some idea of what we are trying to do, what the result should be. To do that we should have some ideas of where we are beginning. As a food maize was edible but was unable to produce the high volumes required and meet the needs of the consumer, today it can reach these goals, would we today consider it maize? I think not as it has become (with our help) a different food plant. We stand on the edge of doing something similar with humans. Is this what we want? Should we do it? Might we end up with differing types of humans? What is it we are beginning this process with?
|
|
|
Post by Scottish Lassie on Dec 19, 2015 16:59:14 GMT -5
This thread is offered only to see if people are considering these things and if so what are people's thinking about these possibilities. It seems to me Men an tol that there is an awful lot of experimenting going on undercover, so who knows what we are going to be subected to, next. I have just learned that they are about to drill into the earth's crust under the deepest part of the ocean. What do you think could happen when they open up the core? I don't like it one bit. And it worries me that we might be opening a Pandora's box. It is all too crazy for me!!!
|
|
|
Post by men an tol on Dec 19, 2015 18:26:09 GMT -5
This thread is offered only to see if people are considering these things and if so what are people's thinking about these possibilities. It seems to me Men an tol that there is an awful lot of experimenting going on undercover, so who knows what we are going to be subected to, next. I have just learned that they are about to drill into the earth's crust under the deepest part of the ocean. What do you think could happen when they open up the core? I don't like it one bit. And it worries me that we might be opening a Pandora's box. It is all too crazy for me!!! Scottish Lassie you are worrying about nothing and are apparently under the mistaken belief that the Earth’s Core is just under the Earth’s Crust. I assure you that such is not true. What they are planning to do is to drill through the Earth’s crust at one of the thinnest points. The intent is to reach the Earth’s Mantle not the Earth’s Core. Look at the Earth as if it were an onion with multiple layers. Earth has an outer silicate solid crust. Under that is a highly viscous mantle. Beneath that is a liquid outer core which is less viscous than the mantle. Finally, there is a solid inner core. These various segments of the Earth are connected and pass things back and forth all of the time. For example, rock segments of the crust continually feed the mantle where they slowly go through changing from solid rock into becoming part of the mantle. Conversely, magma from the mantle rise to the surface of the crust through such as volcanic activity and this too goes on all of the time. These drillings are not the same as drilling for oil and gas as they use quite different techniques, but you have nothing to be concerned about. Nor is this the first such attempt but it appears that this will be the first truly successful one. One of the reasons for doing this (besides the gaining of knowledge through scientific research) is the belief that this will assist in earthquake and volcanic eruption predictions. So you see, this is a good thing. As to your reference to “ . . . there is an awful lot of experimenting going on undercover. . . “ certainly doesn’t apply to this drilling as it has been reported on in many papers for many years. Me thinks you may be spending too much time in your mythological spirit world and not enough in the real world. Little research is carried on that is not known to the rest of the scientific community. It may be no more than indications such as the movement of funds and the employment of experts but rare is it something that can be done intentionally in secret, particularly for some Mephistophelian intent.
|
|
|
Post by Scottish Lassie on Dec 21, 2015 17:40:01 GMT -5
Hi Men an tol, I would love to be able to search the net, but I don't have much success with that, as they think that I am a hacker because of the repeated mistakes that I have made as to my passwords.
Anyway, I always thought that the same amount of pressure on both sides has to exist or there will either be an explosion or an implosion. What I thought might happen, is that by drilling, the pressure from the inner core might erupt upwards and all hell break loose.
The scientists are experimenting somewhere around Norway. They have miles of tunnels where they were experimenting with antimatter, if that got loose, what do you think would happen to the physical plane? It doesn't bear thinking about.!!! Thanks for all the info, I appreciate it, for sure.!!!
|
|
|
Post by mouse on Dec 24, 2015 2:37:37 GMT -5
Hi Men an tol, I would love to be able to search the net, but I don't have much success with that, as they think that I am a hacker because of the repeated mistakes that I have made as to my passwords. Anyway, I always thought that the same amount of pressure on both sides has to exist or there will either be an explosion or an implosion. What I thought might happen, is that by drilling, the pressure from the inner core might erupt upwards and all hell break loose. The scientists are experimenting somewhere around Norway. They have miles of tunnels where they were experimenting with antimatter, if that got loose, what do you think would happen to the physical plane? It doesn't bear thinking about.!!! Thanks for all the info, I appreciate it, for sure.!!! then write down the name you have chosen and the password and keep in a small notepad..that is what I do[and others] and if like me you do no financial stuff on line..then you've nothing to lose and access to gain we daughter grandson and I share one credit card in daughters name which we use on line for kindle books etc the monies are in an account we all share which is not our personal accounts and when any one wants something they use the card and then give or transfer to daughter the full amount and should any one wish to access the account they are very welcome as we keep a minimum amount in the account just to keep it ticking over
|
|
|
Post by Scottish Lassie on Dec 24, 2015 19:25:12 GMT -5
Hi Men an tol, I would love to be able to search the net, but I don't have much success with that, as they think that I am a hacker because of the repeated mistakes that I have made as to my passwords. Anyway, I always thought that the same amount of pressure on both sides has to exist or there will either be an explosion or an implosion. What I thought might happen, is that by drilling, the pressure from the inner core might erupt upwards and all hell break loose. The scientists are experimenting somewhere around Norway. They have miles of tunnels where they were experimenting with antimatter, if that got loose, what do you think would happen to the physical plane? It doesn't bear thinking about.!!! Thanks for all the info, I appreciate it, for sure.!!! then write down the name you have chosen and the password and keep in a small notepad..that is what I do[and others] and if like me you do no financial stuff on line..then you've nothing to lose and access to gain we daughter grandson and I share one credit card in daughters name which we use on line for kindle books etc the monies are in an account we all share which is not our personal accounts and when any one wants something they use the card and then give or transfer to daughter the full amount and should any one wish to access the account they are very welcome as we keep a minimum amount in the account just to keep it ticking over Hi Mouse, I do write it down but manage to mislay everything. I try hard to put things in the same place but it isn't always possible. One time I came in from outside and instead of putting my keys on a hook by the door. I found that I still had them in my hand,so thinking I would remember, I put them down where I was at the time, next morning when I needed them they ofcourse weren't on the hook, lucky for me I had a spare key which I used, but couldn't get into my letterbox as all my main keys were together. I eventually found them weeks later. I have also left them in the lock whilst I was attending to my groceries, next day I can't find them and spend ages looking for them, then find them still in the lock. It's just as well that I have a screen door that locks without a key, so my keys were safe. My memory no longer serves me well, that's for sure.!!!
|
|