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Post by Wonder Woman on May 2, 2010 20:32:20 GMT -5
I dunno ~~ seems like if we make the choice to end it so as not to be a burden on our loved ones, we deprive them of something very special. ****** Separately, if someone asks you to end it for them, because of their pain, well, it's really not necessary to 'end' it, committing murder. All they really want is for their pain to be over. One can heavily medicate (quite legal through hospice, at least in CA) and let nature finish things. If we do not suffer, we are not wise. If we are not wise, we are not blessed. Therefore, if we do not suffer, we are not blessed While I comprehend those words, and to a point, very reluctantly agree, there is a huge part of me that would rather have remained ignorant. Do you think it's always wise to avoid physical death at all costs, Lynne. Could it be that a person could maximize their humanity by choosing to preserve some dignity and tranquility of mind? No, Kay ~ I do not think that we should avoid physical death at all costs. Physical death is (at least to me) just that next step along a journey. However, I do think that the decision to end this life should come with soul searching and great deliberation.
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Post by Wonder Woman on May 2, 2010 21:08:16 GMT -5
so if one assists in a suicide, they are murdering? No, I don't think so, necessarily. Assisting in someone's choice to die isn't actually taking the action they profess to desire, either, though. The law may disagree. So, IMO, the law should be changed, *if* we want to be allowed to kill those whose life is no longer bearable, but can't kill themselves. Usually life support is turned off (as far as I know) when a patient is considered brain dead. And, as Novak mentioned, now-a-days, patients can choose for themselves ahead of time through DNR orders they've signed, and advance directives.
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Erasmus
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Post by Erasmus on May 2, 2010 21:14:31 GMT -5
I've just discovered that somebody I used to know died a month ago. I could have been nicer to her than I was, especially as there was a time 15 years before that I fancied her. From the lack of information, I suspect suicide or out of her mind on drink or drugs. Maybe 'she' has gone on somewhere, maybe her experiences go to a general pool and there is no continuing personality.
I wonder if when the ancients spoke of immortality, they meant that they believed there was no immortal soul but following their creed could create one that would continue instead of dissipating like the body. There's a lot of misconceptions about what Christianity actually teaches, and die and go to heaven is one of them: both St. Paul and the funeral service talk about rebirth in a physical body for some, elimination for others, at the end of the current order of things. Maybe they meant one future event, maybe they meant that some preserved their identity enough to be reborn as individuals while the rest just dissipated into the general psychic databank.
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Post by fretslider on May 3, 2010 7:42:50 GMT -5
I've just discovered that somebody I used to know died a month ago. I could have been nicer to her than I was, especially as there was a time 15 years before that I fancied her. From the lack of information, I suspect suicide or out of her mind on drink or drugs. Maybe 'she' has gone on somewhere, maybe her experiences go to a general pool and there is no continuing personality. I wonder if when the ancients spoke of immortality, they meant that they believed there was no immortal soul but following their creed could create one that would continue instead of dissipating like the body. There's a lot of misconceptions about what Christianity actually teaches, and die and go to heaven is one of them: both St. Paul and the funeral service talk about rebirth in a physical body for some, elimination for others, at the end of the current order of things. Maybe they meant one future event, maybe they meant that some preserved their identity enough to be reborn as individuals while the rest just dissipated into the general psychic databank. You are born. You die. The bit in between is called life; enjoy it, you only get one and then its party time for the worms.
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Post by Kay on May 3, 2010 17:46:10 GMT -5
I've just discovered that somebody I used to know died a month ago. I could have been nicer to her than I was, especially as there was a time 15 years before that I fancied her. From the lack of information, I suspect suicide or out of her mind on drink or drugs. Maybe 'she' has gone on somewhere, maybe her experiences go to a general pool and there is no continuing personality. I wonder if when the ancients spoke of immortality, they meant that they believed there was no immortal soul but following their creed could create one that would continue instead of dissipating like the body. There's a lot of misconceptions about what Christianity actually teaches, and die and go to heaven is one of them: both St. Paul and the funeral service talk about rebirth in a physical body for some, elimination for others, at the end of the current order of things. Maybe they meant one future event, maybe they meant that some preserved their identity enough to be reborn as individuals while the rest just dissipated into the general psychic databank. I'm very sorry for your loss, Erasmus. I think, no matter the circumstances, we all have regrets when someone passes away. I believe, there's more to life than this mortal coil, so I'll pray that your friend has found the peace that escaped her in this life.
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Post by Erasmus on May 3, 2010 18:49:17 GMT -5
Thank you. I don't feel guilty but I do feel sad. She's OK now - even if the worst I don't believe in were true, she has enough praying for her soul and all that gibberish for people to believe it so. Personally, I understand that as 'magic', that your efforts might influence whatever events you believe in, but as 'religion' it makes a fool of any 'God' unless He waits to decide how many loved this person and therefore adds their votes to how He decides about them. I just might respect the concept of a Universal Arbiter like that but there is no need for one. I certainly cannot respect the concept of a personal god (called 'God'!) whose (all those Biblical words) Immutable, Ineffable, Supernal - blah blah - decisions can change because a few people ask very nicely. Sorry: if you want to believe in a personal 'God' then you can't have it both ways and tell God what to do to suit you too.
I just find the situation sad. I found her sad when I came back to her again because both of us had lost a vibrancy we had had 15 years before. It was like we'd made the effort and it wasn't wanted, we could do something but nobody cared or wanted to know. She used to sing slow jazz and blues stuff. It's hard to say how good she was because that's a style that even Tom Waits and Louis Armstrong can get away with croaking through. For a woman a bit harder, but can still get away with it. But when I saw her again after ten years where she'd been round San Francisco and homeless and had a kid off some Congolese bloke, she'd been tamed and got fat. The initiative, the fire was gone, as it was in me, because you know nobody wants it, it only upsets their little boat and threatens their command.
But you can't be all loving to every single person either or you end up unable to distinguish one from another, seeing no special value in anybody and with no distinct personality of your own. I've been talking about this with my ex-boss because we get so used to accepting people with mental disabilities that we become incapable of discrimination. And in the sense it has developed, discrimination means prejudice but in its real sense means distinguishing and evaluating instead of allowing every ijit to impose their views on you. You are ashamed to do what you are ashamed not to let them do to you! In a way that implies you are better, more tolerant, more understanding than them.
Understand, yes. Accept and tolerate, no.
What makes me to cry about Leah is that if a reason can be given for death, then it will be given. When there is no reason, that means a death for reasons they don't want to explain. She smoked hash and she drank more than I do - and that's a fair bit! But I fear she did not just trip on a trip, she killed herself, and that would mean too, she thought her daughter better elsewhere. Whatever pain in the arse and discoordinated she could be, she was better than that!
We can all think ourself imperfect and try to improve it. It is terrible when we feel we can't improve, we are better off out of it. She adored her daughter though they had some tremendous rows - and that again, and adult does not row with a child of 4 as an equal! I hope Olivia remembers her, as I remembered her and also was even then saddened, like in a novel (Mary Renault's The Bull from the Sea based on the Theseus legends) "Do I want children to see me and ask Was this Theseus once?" and instead go out on a high by choice. But I don't think it would have been high for her in that sense.
Her suffering is ended.
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Post by Wonder Woman on May 3, 2010 21:08:09 GMT -5
I've just discovered that somebody I used to know died a month ago. I could have been nicer to her than I was, especially as there was a time 15 years before that I fancied her. From the lack of information, I suspect suicide or out of her mind on drink or drugs. Maybe 'she' has gone on somewhere, maybe her experiences go to a general pool and there is no continuing personality. I wonder if when the ancients spoke of immortality, they meant that they believed there was no immortal soul but following their creed could create one that would continue instead of dissipating like the body. There's a lot of misconceptions about what Christianity actually teaches, and die and go to heaven is one of them: both St. Paul and the funeral service talk about rebirth in a physical body for some, elimination for others, at the end of the current order of things. Maybe they meant one future event, maybe they meant that some preserved their identity enough to be reborn as individuals while the rest just dissipated into the general psychic databank. You are born. You die. The bit in between is called life; enjoy it, you only get one and then its party time for the worms. ... seems kinda pessimistic. Then again, one of us will be in for a surprise.
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Post by Erasmus on May 3, 2010 21:39:24 GMT -5
I think that's what 'deeper' religion was about - believing that the right exercise could hold 'you' together after you die, so that you continue to exist as a personality. Can't say whether I believe it worked or not - who could? - but I think meant a belief that 'you' could go on as 'you', and take your chance if that was in a world of terror you called 'Hell'. This world we live in is the real Hell, but it has been worse and can be again.
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Post by fretslider on May 4, 2010 2:33:03 GMT -5
You are born. You die. The bit in between is called life; enjoy it, you only get one and then its party time for the worms. ... seems kinda pessimistic. Then again, one of us will be in for a surprise. It has not gone unnoticed that realism is often equated with pessimism. What's pessimistic about enjoying life? You need to face up to your mortality and then move on.
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Post by Erasmus on May 4, 2010 19:06:21 GMT -5
But don't get addicted to life - it's like Christmas in the prison or the terminal ward.
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Post by Wonder Woman on May 5, 2010 7:47:45 GMT -5
... seems kinda pessimistic. Then again, one of us will be in for a surprise. It has not gone unnoticed that realism is often equated with pessimism. What's pessimistic about enjoying life? You need to face up to your mortality and then move on. Nothing. I think the problem arrises when we spend so much time worrying about being worm food that we forget to enjoy life. I haven't a problem facing up to my mortality, I just know (for my own self) what you refer to has only to do with the binds of the physical.
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Post by Wonder Woman on May 5, 2010 7:48:25 GMT -5
But don't get addicted to life - it's like Christmas in the prison or the terminal ward. ......... fleeting?
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Post by fretslider on May 5, 2010 8:49:42 GMT -5
It has not gone unnoticed that realism is often equated with pessimism. What's pessimistic about enjoying life? You need to face up to your mortality and then move on. Nothing. I think the problem arrises when we spend so much time worrying about being worm food that we forget to enjoy life. I haven't a problem facing up to my mortality, I just know (for my own self) what you refer to has only to do with the binds of the physical. If you are saying that living things have an existence after death, is that qualified by what species etc it is? eg..... Humans only? Mammals only? Vertibrates only? Chordates only? Even the smallpox virus has life, does it too have an afterlife? If not, why not?
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Post by Erasmus on May 5, 2010 21:10:36 GMT -5
The universe has some sort of existence and quite possibly is part of some much greater self-awareness. Every so often, maybe some parts of it flicker into awareness of their own little existence in a body. Maybe they can learn to preserve that awareness as part of the entirity after the body has ceased to function. I'm not sure whether they should or not, or maybe individual awareness is the Ultimate Unity that it is all part of waking up and beginning to control its parts consciously.
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Post by Wonder Woman on May 5, 2010 21:37:40 GMT -5
Nothing. I think the problem arrises when we spend so much time worrying about being worm food that we forget to enjoy life. I haven't a problem facing up to my mortality, I just know (for my own self) what you refer to has only to do with the binds of the physical. If you are saying that living things have an existence after death, is that qualified by what species etc it is? eg..... Humans only? Mammals only? Vertibrates only? Chordates only? Even the smallpox virus has life, does it too have an afterlife? If not, why not? Hmm. Very interesting question, Fret. Maybe all the icky stuff lives in hell? Our bodies die. Viruses don't die, do they? Don't they just move, change, lie dormant, whatever? Mosquitos die though. I've taken out my share. Do mosquitos have souls?
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