Erasmus
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"We do not take prisoners - we liberate them" - http://www.aeonbytegnosticradio.com
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Post by Erasmus on Aug 17, 2010 13:36:02 GMT -5
Anybody else not a bit surprised? 17 August 2010 Last updated at 11:07 GMT
Adolf Hitler 'was not a brave soldier' claims new book Image said to show Hitler in 1915 [Pic: Korbinian Rutz] Hitler's wartime role is challenged in Dr Thomas Weber's book
Adolf Hitler's image as a brave soldier was a myth, according to a University of Aberdeen historian.
Dr Thomas Weber's book Hitler's First War claims Hitler exaggerated his early role in battle, and that he was instead what was known as a "rear area pig".
Dr Weber said he had uncovered new archive material and personal documents which challenged popular understanding of Hitler and the Third Reich.
He said: "I discovered we know next to nothing about Hitler."
Dr Weber claims the Nazis worked to suppress and discredit accounts of Hitler's early war role.
He said as a dispatch runner Hitler was significantly distanced from his regiment's front line troops and was clearly despised by them.
Dr Weber said: "I never thought I would write about Hitler as so many books have been written about his life.
"But virtually everything that we do know is based on Mein Kampf or Nazi propaganda.
"I was surprised how much new material we found and more than 70% of my book is based on previously unused sources."
He said: "The myth of Hitler as a brave soldier and the camaraderie of the trenches was used by the Nazi party from the beginning in order to extend its appeal beyond the far right.
"The reality was a gulf between the majority of soldiers and Hitler. The commonly held view that Hitler had the dangerous job of running between trenches to deliver messages simply does not stand up.
"I found that his role was to deliver messages between regimental HQ and, for instance, battalions or the HQs of other units, and not companies, as has previously been stated - so he would have been between three and five kilometres behind the front line."
Hitler's First War will be available from 16 September.
BBC
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Post by mouse on Aug 17, 2010 15:42:30 GMT -5
its been obvious all along..where were the comrades who sang his praises.... almost every one in the army has some one they fought along side
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Erasmus
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Post by Erasmus on Aug 17, 2010 16:35:46 GMT -5
Probably died in a camp. The only one I know of who had any kind of war record worth mentioning was Hermann Goering. It's a fascinating observation in I can't remember which book (might be Occult Reich) that the Nazis were a bunch of failures in a failed state that had lost a war. Even Goering wasn't allowed to fly any more and it never seems to have occurred to him, like so many American ex-bomber pilots, to put seats in the bomber and start an airline. But then Germany put more faith in airships.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2010 17:49:38 GMT -5
Watch this space.
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Post by sadie on Aug 18, 2010 20:14:52 GMT -5
I find it odd that he can start out saying "we know next to nothing about Hitler" and then write a whole book about him. Do we really want to know anymore about him?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2010 17:13:14 GMT -5
As I said yesterday, watch this space.
I have discussed this thread with Beth and hopefully light will be shed on the matter over the next few days.
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Post by sadie on Aug 27, 2010 13:52:05 GMT -5
I'm still watching............is it going to do tricks?
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Post by beth on Aug 27, 2010 23:20:51 GMT -5
Here's another interesting wrinkle on the Hitler mystique. DNA Tests: Hitler Descended From Jews, Africans? The history of Adolf Hitler is well known. Apart from bringing the world to war, the Nazi leader was obsessed with the idea of a European "master race," which served as the foundation for his hostility toward Jews and led to the tragedy of the Holocaust. But DNA testing may provide a new twist: Hitler may have been descended from both Jews and Africans, according to a Daily Mail report. Belgian journalist Jean-Paul Mulder and historian Marc Vermeeren conducted tests on 39 of the Nazi leader's relatives earlier this year. A Belgian news magazine reported that according to Mulder's and Vermeeren's study, Hitler's relatives have a chromosome called Haplopgroup E1b1b (Y-DNA) that is rare in Germany and Western Europe. It could have its roots in Africa and the Middle East. "It is most commonly found in the Berbers of Morocco, in Algeria, Libya and Tunisia, as well as among Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews," Mr Vermeeren said in the article. According to the report, Haplogroup E1b1b1 accounts for about 18 to 20 percent of Ashkenazi and 8.6 percent to 30 percent of Sephardic Y-chromosomes. "It appears to be one of the major founding lineages of the Jewish population," the Daily Mail reported. There have been other suggestions that Hitler had Jewish blood. Hitler's father, Alois, might have been an illegitimate child of a Jewish man called Frankenberger and a German maid, Maria Schickelgruber, which would make Hitler one-quarter Jewish. Hitler's nephew, Patrick, may have tried to blackmail him over Alois' ancestry. www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-20014645-503543.html
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Cowardy cowardy corporal
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Post by Cowardy cowardy corporal on Aug 28, 2010 5:59:51 GMT -5
I apologise for posting on this thread but Mike has assured me it will be all right for me to do so.
Perhaps I should begin by introducing myself. My name is Michael FitzGerald and I am a historian of the Third Reich. Two of my books on the subject have won prizes and my second one, 'Adolf Hitler: A Portrait' won a prize as best historical biography,
I have been researching Hitler and German history from 1918 to 1945 since I was a teenager. (I am now 61 years old.) I know Ian Kershaw, Roger Moorehouse, Peter Stachura, Jeremy Noakes and many other fellow historians of the Nazi era. I have researched extensively in primary sources, particularly the Bundesarchiv.
Naturally I have read thousands of books and articles on the subject. It amazes me how many ordinary people think I must be a Nazi because I write about them. I suppose I may as well make it quite clear that I am not.
The outstanding biorgraphies of Hitler are by Alan Bullock,l Hugh Trevor-Roper, Colin Cross, John Toland and Ian Kershaw. Not one of them subscribes to the vie put forward by the author of this new work. Nor have my researches in primary sources found any reason to beleve that Hitler was anything other than a brave soldier.
Only two books, both only avaialable in German, have ever been written solely on Hitler's military career. One is by Hans Mend, a professional criminal, fraudster and perjurer. Mend's book gives a very hostile account of Hitler but even he does not accuse tyhe future Chancellor of Germany of cowardice or of having an easy time during the war.
The other book was written by Fritz Wiedemann, the lieutenant under whom Hitler served for almost the entire war. Wiedemann was anything but an admirer of Hitler but he certainly regarded him as a brave soldier.
Let's look at the facts of Hitler's military service. He first saw action at the Battle of Ypres. During that conflict, which lasted four days, the commander of his regiment was killed and his deputy wounded. Under heavy fire, Hitler and a medical orderly rescued the wounded officer and dragged him back to safety. A new commandeer took over and went out with Hitler and another soldier to observe the enemy positions. They were seen by Allied troops and a volley of machine-gun fire greeted them. Hitler save his commander's life that day.
For this action he was recommended for an Iron Cross, First Class. However, because of the domination of the army by aristocratic officers, he only received the Iron Cross, Second Class. No coward would have been awarded either honour.
Throughout th3e war Hitler remained a respected member of his regiment. He was considered brave, to have a cool head in a crisis and to be loyal to his comrades.
In 1916 he was wounded at the Battle of the Somme. He spent two months convalescing and pleaded to be returned to the colours. Until October 1917, other than his time in hospital, he never went on leave.
During the last series of German offensives in 1918 Hitler was awarded the Iron Cross, First Class. The inscription on it read 'For personal bravery and general merit.'
Three weeks before the Armistice Hitler was gassed. As a result he spent a few weeks in hospital recovering.
On a personal level, I dislike Hitler and am glad that Germany was defeated Apart from being a mass murderer, he launched a brutal and repressive dictatorship on his country and millions of non-Germans also suffered at his hands.
However much one may dislike the man and disagree with his philosophy, Hitler certainly was a brave soldier. I do not know the author of this book although as a historian in the field I will obviously have to read it. Many dubious, tendentious and downright false books have been written on Hitler and the Third Reich. Thgugh I will suspend judgement until I have read this particular contributioin, my own instinct is that it is a piece of gratuitous sensationalism.
It does history a great disservice to see Hitler as a pantomime villain rather than, as he was, a deeply flawed and complex character whom millions love. Hitler was no more a coward than Wilfred Owen, Siegfried Sassoon and Isaac Rosenberg were.
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Post by Michael FitzGerald on Aug 28, 2010 6:03:02 GMT -5
I had not realised that I had given my own name as cowardy cowardy corporal. I am not at all a lover of the internet and please forgive me for this silly mistake.
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Post by sadie on Aug 28, 2010 7:39:26 GMT -5
Mr. Fitgergerald.......thank you so much.....seems the thread can do tricks.
Seriously.....nothing else does make sense. He could not have been a coward and risen thru the ranks to leadership. Who would have followed him? No one....he could not have garnered respect, certainly no followers........but since he is such a villain of history people seem to want to continue to destroy everything about him.
Thank you for setting that straight. Would love to hear more. Probably on any subject from you. You write beautifully.
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Post by beth on Aug 28, 2010 8:19:41 GMT -5
Thank you for the interesting, informative read, Mr FitzGerald. Hitler seems to have been a very complex individual. It's unfortunate he chose the dark path, but, even so, it's important history portray him as accurately as possible. You're very welcome to come in and post anytime you like. Just let us know and we'll open up a guest thread for you. A special hat-tip to Lin and Mike for their help in sharing your opinion and special knowledge on this topic. best regards, Jencin
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2010 16:36:56 GMT -5
Thank you for allowing Michael to post as a guest. He is a good friend of Lin's father and I thought he would be interested in this subject.
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Post by sadie on Aug 28, 2010 17:52:46 GMT -5
Gosh.....it's more the reverse.....thanks for bringing him here and sharing him with us!!! That was great!
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Erasmus
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Post by Erasmus on Aug 28, 2010 18:34:12 GMT -5
All human beings are complex. I may have been inaccurate to entitle the thread as I did. It was for effect. I make no assumption that Hitler was a coward (whatever that is except a normal human being concerned for their own survival), only as contrast to implied Nazi propaganda that he was the opposite, a Hero. He was in reality an ordinary Fritz-on-the-line as concerned with protecting his own back as any normal human being in that position. The point is that he was nothing special, not that he was exceptional in a negative sense. In the light of his bombastic militarism that naturally makes him a charlatan. The same can be said of Mussolini, who kept the lights on in his office when he was off in his mistress's apartment.
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