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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2010 6:49:31 GMT -5
I'm not interested in defining people by their gender any more than I am by the colour of their skin.
I'm an egalitarian - though that word gets much misunderstood - so I find the whole notion of treating either men or women as if they were in some kind of specially privileged box nothing more than patronising nonsense.
As for your rant, Erasmus, you are simply singling out ONE aspect of SOME women who call themselves feminists and pretending that THEIR ideas are the mainstream.
One might as well argue that the Flat Earth Society represented the general consensus among scientists!
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Post by beth on Jun 14, 2010 9:09:25 GMT -5
Must agree with Mike. We can play around with stereotypes forever and they'll still be just that - stereotypes. I have to watch that, myself, being inclined to lump all political tea-party people under one gray umbrella. I frequent a couple of sites where I do see some of the types described by you, Erasmus ... but they seem to be the exception more than the rule, and getting more scattered all the time. They are old school, so there's really no point in becoming upset about them. They are thinning themselves out.
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Post by Wonder Woman on Jun 14, 2010 9:35:47 GMT -5
Is that a gently nudge from a non-specified gender friend or you being a male chauvinist?
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Post by Wonder Woman on Jun 14, 2010 9:37:44 GMT -5
Once more, Erasmus, your definition of feminism is so clearly subjective and skewed that you are simply setting up an Aunt Sally in order to knock it down again. I do NOT consider myself a feminist (though I certainly don't think I'm a misogynist or male chauvinist either!) but: 1 Surely it's agreed by people of ALL persuasions that equal pay for equal work is no more than simple natural justice? 2 Surely most of us agree that women should have as wide a choice of opportunities for working as man. 3 I'm sure most of us agree that men are just as capable of raising children as women. If agreeing with those options makes me a feminist in your book, so be it. I do NOT support affirmative action programmes, positive discrimination, patently sexist laws such as the presumption of maternal custody rather than joint custody, the war on fathers in the name of alimony, the proliferation of false allegations of rape and domestic violence, and the general misandry that masquerades as feminism but is actually female chauvinism. I oppose ALL forms of discrimination - positive or negative - and despise female and male chauvinist attitudes equally. See if I open the door for you again, Mike ~ even if your hands are full!!
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Post by mouse on Jun 14, 2010 11:58:07 GMT -5
but isnt that just good manners and not a thing to do with the person passing through the doors sexuality
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Erasmus
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Post by Erasmus on Jun 14, 2010 21:13:34 GMT -5
I'm an egalitarian - though that word gets much misunderstood - so I find the whole notion of treating either men or women as if they were in some kind of specially privileged box nothing more than patronising nonsense. As for your rant, Erasmus, you are simply singling out ONE aspect of SOME women who call themselves feminists and pretending that THEIR ideas are the mainstream. One might as well argue that the Flat Earth Society represented the general consensus among scientists! For God's sake! Whenever I define exactly that I mean by 'feminist' and why I loathe their sexist contempt of women, just as most women do and certainly those bloggers I find worth following, I get the same runaround dismissal that to express any opinion or explanation that does not conform to the conventional lies is a rant. This is wh6y I get sick of trying to talk sense to bigots of that kind. They - you - lay down your law and when I question it and raise points of disagreement, you avoid the issue by flouncing out screaming rant at any view you dislike. I agree with you in regarding everybody as an individual person regardless of sexual accoutrements. However, you are lying because if you really did believe that way, you would not dismiss my criticism of feminists opposed to that sexual equality as rant to avoid discussing it. You are a liar because you said when I had made it very clear that nobody, especially not women, regard those feminist filth as mainstream or any other kind of stream beyond one that might be leaking out of a sewer. Even when you are slagging me for defending 'feminine' values against modern feminism, you openly refute yourself as much as 'feminists' did before by saying That's totally correct and exactly what I said: One might as well argue (and feminists do) that ONE aspect of SOME women who call themselves feminisits and pretending THEIR ideas are the mainstream. But most women do not call themselves feminists and have more than one aspect to their character (and want nothing to do with feminists), while those women who do not call themselves feminists are those whose ideas are the mainstream, not the self-styled feminists wallowing in self-induced victimhood desperately trying to drag other women whose ideas are the mainstream down to their level of inadequacy so that the feeble feminist girlies can avoid addressing their own personal sense of inadequacy and whine to men to do it for them by trying to convince 'liberated' women that they are equally helpless inferior victims too dependent on men to dictate their life. Feminism today is a last-ditch attempt to remove women as any kind of equal pressure group from society, and to reduce them to the same economic servitude as men. The very fact that you dimiss my saying so as rant shows that you know it to be true. You have even admitted that feminists represent women as much as the Flat Earth Society represents scientist. Yet you still suport them against the belief you claim in equality of the sexes, when feminism means regarding women as inferior to a fantasy image of male machismo. Just like Jean Hartrick, you contradict yourself the most when you speak in what you claim to be your own support. You have said it yourself: that ONE aspect of SOME women who call themselves feminsits and pretending THEIR ideas are the mainstreamBut most women whose ideas really are the mainstream do not call themselves feminists and want nothing to do with that shower of macho shoot.
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Post by Erasmus on Jun 14, 2010 21:24:27 GMT -5
I frequent a couple of sites where I do see some of the types described by you, Erasmus ... but they seem to be the exception more than the rule, and getting more scattered all the time. They are old school, so there's really no point in becoming upset about them. They are thinning themselves out. Isn't that what I said? Feminists are the macho-worshiping dead end of a bunch of spoilt little girls who never grew up and both resent men for expecting them to be equals instead of pampered pets, and are are terrified of men sexually because they never learnt to meet men on equal terms? So why the almighty fuss when I say so? Why do women jump to support feminists who absolutely deny all the equality that women normally believe in? I do not leap to support the BNP or the IRA or any other bunch of disconsolate fascists when they are taken to task for views they claim to represent their whole group who have almost universally rejected them and they regard as traitors for doing so - yet women leap to defend feminist filth whose only real belief is that women are inferior to men and women who do not believe so are to stupid to know their own mind, while men who do not want to rape women into subjection are either homosexuals or liars.
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Post by Wonder Woman on Jun 14, 2010 22:48:43 GMT -5
I'm not interested in defining people by their gender any more than I am by the colour of their skin. I'm an egalitarian - though that word gets much misunderstood - so I find the whole notion of treating either men or women as if they were in some kind of specially privileged box nothing more than patronising nonsense. As for your rant, Erasmus, you are simply singling out ONE aspect of SOME women who call themselves feminists and pretending that THEIR ideas are the mainstream. One might as well argue that the Flat Earth Society represented the general consensus among scientists! I am a woman, Mike, and whether you see me as one or not doesn't change that I'm a woman, and very content being a woman. My personal feeling on the subject at hand ~ as a woman ~ is that many who call themselves feminists (nowadays) are over-the-top but believe all forward moving women should want those things they in particular want.
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Post by beth on Jun 15, 2010 0:10:35 GMT -5
I frequent a couple of sites where I do see some of the types described by you, Erasmus ... but they seem to be the exception more than the rule, and getting more scattered all the time. They are old school, so there's really no point in becoming upset about them. They are thinning themselves out. Isn't that what I said? Feminists are the macho-worshiping dead end of a bunch of spoilt little girls who never grew up and both resent men for expecting them to be equals instead of pampered pets, and are are terrified of men sexually because they never learnt to meet men on equal terms? So why the almighty fuss when I say so? Why do women jump to support feminists who absolutely deny all the equality that women normally believe in? I do not leap to support the BNP or the IRA or any other bunch of disconsolate fascists when they are taken to task for views they claim to represent their whole group who have almost universally rejected them and they regard as traitors for doing so - yet women leap to defend feminist filth whose only real belief is that women are inferior to men and women who do not believe so are to stupid to know their own mind, while men who do not rape men into subjection are either homosexuals or liars. I guess the "why" is because I see so few of these types that it doesn't seem to be worth the rant. The biggest concern to them at the moment is the gay marriage war - whether they are lesbians or not, they suppost their 'sisters'. I don't have a problem with that particular agenda, so feel no resentment or disdain toward them.
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Post by Erasmus on Jun 15, 2010 19:38:09 GMT -5
I agree and I've said so. I don't think I've ever met one of these feminists in real life and as I've repeatedly said, no woman who'd support them. They seem to exist only in obscure ranting blogs and internet boards. So why the big fuss every time I say that feminism is no more than the self-pity of a few girlies who can't accept that their sense of inferiority and inadequacy might come about because they are inferior inadequates and instead invent a kind of sexist conspiracy theory that would drag all women down to their level in one great whinge?
Even when it meant something, there was always a misogynist undercurrent to feminism. There has to be a measure of self-abasement to any group that treats another as an ideal to emulate uncritically.
It is no surprise at all that when society took a turn to the Left emphasizing individual self-expression and fulfilling personal needs and desires, feminism was linked closely to humane ideas going beyond traditional Socialism and questioned the Protestant work ethic and men's traditional roles and macho image as much as it did women's, while when society took a violent lurch to the Right, feminism followed it to suppress women's traditional values opposed to Business and to extol and enforce the traditional male role (and aggressive selfish image) onto both sexes without question. Rebels are part of the society they rebel against.
When I first started posting, on BBC boards, I did so seeing myself as a feminist, supportive of the Leftist tradition opposed to traditional masculine roles and values and supportive of the broader more personal and less economic ones more associated with women, to be expected of men too. Every woman I have actually known likes men to be appreciative of and participate in traditional women's values and in fact most expect it as 'the norm'. It was the self-identifying feminists who hounded me with total opposition to giving any value to anything they considered traditional to women. Usually when I cited women I'd known with approval for their strength and assertion nothing like the image these feminists give of women as feeble downtrodden perpetual victims, they came back screeching that they were not surprised I hated women so much if such terrible people I was complaining about were all I knew of them!
It is from those women, mainly Jean Hartrick, Redbookish, 'Dayzee' (or Dazed as I prefer to call her) that I came to understand what 'feminism' means now - the absolute opposite of the liberal merger of both sexes in the middle that it meant then. It really means Masculinism, of women and of society. And that in turn really means removing the humane post-Socialist threat that the older feminism posed to industrial capitalism.
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Post by mouse on Jun 16, 2010 3:00:37 GMT -5
does it really matter..equality in law and thought is all that matters
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Post by iamjumbo on Jun 16, 2010 6:17:56 GMT -5
I'm not interested in defining people by their gender any more than I am by the colour of their skin. I'm an egalitarian - though that word gets much misunderstood - so I find the whole notion of treating either men or women as if they were in some kind of specially privileged box nothing more than patronising nonsense. As for your rant, Erasmus, you are simply singling out ONE aspect of SOME women who call themselves feminists and pretending that THEIR ideas are the mainstream. One might as well argue that the Flat Earth Society represented the general consensus among scientists! you're absolutely right, EXCEPT. it is not patronizing to open the door, pull out a chair, etc etc etc for a lady. it is also not patronizing to do whatever is necessary to stop some piece of shyt who thinks he can pound on a girl. otherwise, you are spot on. the boy has NEVER had any concept of what feminism is about, and is not likely to ever get it right
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Post by iamjumbo on Jun 16, 2010 6:24:21 GMT -5
I'm an egalitarian - though that word gets much misunderstood - so I find the whole notion of treating either men or women as if they were in some kind of specially privileged box nothing more than patronising nonsense. As for your rant, Erasmus, you are simply singling out ONE aspect of SOME women who call themselves feminists and pretending that THEIR ideas are the mainstream. One might as well argue that the Flat Earth Society represented the general consensus among scientists! For God's sake! Whenever I define exactly that I mean by 'feminist' and why I loathe their sexist contempt of women, just as most women do and certainly those bloggers I find worth following, I get the same runaround dismissal that to express any opinion or explanation that does not conform to the conventional lies is a rant. This is wh6y I get sick of trying to talk sense to bigots of that kind. They - you - lay down your law and when I question it and raise points of disagreement, you avoid the issue by flouncing out screaming rant at any view you dislike. I agree with you in regarding everybody as an individual person regardless of sexual accoutrements. However, you are lying because if you really did believe that way, you would not dismiss my criticism of feminists opposed to that sexual equality as rant to avoid discussing it. You are a liar because you said when I had made it very clear that nobody, especially not women, regard those feminist filth as mainstream or any other kind of stream beyond one that might be leaking out of a sewer. Even when you are slagging me for defending 'feminine' values against modern feminism, you openly refute yourself as much as 'feminists' did before by saying That's totally correct and exactly what I said: One might as well argue (and feminists do) that ONE aspect of SOME women who call themselves feminisits and pretending THEIR ideas are the mainstream. But most women do not call themselves feminists and have more than one aspect to their character (and want nothing to do with feminists), while those women who do not call themselves feminists are those whose ideas are the mainstream, not the self-styled feminists wallowing in self-induced victimhood desperately trying to drag other women whose ideas are the mainstream down to their level of inadequacy so that the feeble feminist girlies can avoid addressing their own personal sense of inadequacy and whine to men to do it for them by trying to convince 'liberated' women that they are equally helpless inferior victims too dependent on men to dictate their life. Feminism today is a last-ditch attempt to remove women as any kind of equal pressure group from society, and to reduce them to the same economic servitude as men. The very fact that you dimiss my saying so as rant shows that you know it to be true. You have even admitted that feminists represent women as much as the Flat Earth Society represents scientist. Yet you still suport them against the belief you claim in equality of the sexes, when feminism means regarding women as inferior to a fantasy image of male machismo. Just like Jean Hartrick, you contradict yourself the most when you speak in what you claim to be your own support. You have said it yourself: that ONE aspect of SOME women who call themselves feminsits and pretending THEIR ideas are the mainstreamBut most women whose ideas really are the mainstream do not call themselves feminists and want nothing to do with that shower of macho shoot. no lad. you are dismissed because you choose to express an opinion that is patently absurd and has absolutely no basis in reality whatsoever.
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Post by Wonder Woman on Jun 16, 2010 20:11:17 GMT -5
no lad. you are dismissed because you choose to express an opinion that is patently absurd and has absolutely no basis in reality whatsoever. What I think is absurd is you telling anyone else they're post is patently absurd, when so often I find myself rolling my eyes in your general direction.
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Erasmus
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Post by Erasmus on Jun 16, 2010 22:36:42 GMT -5
I am not his 'lad' - and probably older than Jumbo - nor do I know anybody with that arrogant dismissal of anybody with ideas different from them, and if I have met women as feeble as modern 'feminists' define, they are the ones my female friends were seeking 'liberation' from.
I have given what women who call themselves 'feminist' told me and why I can no more accept their denigration of women than the women I knew 40 years ago standing up against exactly that same prejudice, and believed themselves then 'feminist' - but more likely just 'wiccan' or 'matriarchal' or 'green'. Feminism is the reaction against recognising 'female' values as equal to male, and women as leaders of men instead of complaisant followers of the same subservience as traditionally demanded of men.
In the 1980s, a few women set themselves up as Lesbian communes believing themselves such natural inferiors to men that they could only be inferiors in men's presence. They were wrong in detail because it is only feminist dogma that indoctrinates women to feel inferior to 'men' and then only to the false image they create of 'men' that is really what they want to be. If they had not thought of themselves as natural inferiors to their (reactionary) idea of men, they could have built an alternative culture for both sexes instead of perpetuating traditional exclusion of men from equality with women and the 'humane' values that women upheld against Industrialism until Thatcherism took them over to serve the Corporate State and join men instead of to oppose it and demand men join them as equal human beings.
A year ago, Jumbo was justifying rape to me, that I must be crazy or perverted in his eyes to think anything wrong about forcing sex out of somebody knowing they did not want it. "If I want to watch football and my wife demands sex, am I being raped?"
Yes. What kind of person would treat another to demand sex they know that other does does not want?That is the DEFINITION of rape, sex with somebody who does not want it. What kind of creep could enjoy sex knowing the partner does not? Jumbo says he could. It would and did disgust me
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