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Post by fretslider on Aug 2, 2012 10:32:46 GMT -5
"Who benefits from all this engineered conflict?"The mad Mullahs. The arms salesmen, the capitalists, the imperialists, the religious right in America and terrorists like Breivik. And of course the EDL! If we didn't have these lunatics in our midst, pandered to for fear of offence there would be no raison d'etre for the EDL in the first place, and I know you know that.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2012 10:33:01 GMT -5
Krickitt, how DO you deal with the many downright repulsive passages in the Bible? How do you answer the question about the dubious morality of a God who appears to approve of murder, genocide, rape, stoning women to death for adultery and to sentencing millions of people to hell for not believing in him?
I simply cannot understand how anyone who has not undergone a compassion bypass could possibly regard him as a suitable object of worship.
Do you believe that every word in the Bible is literally true and that it is the direct words of God that are being proclaimed in it?
Or do you regard it as the work of humans groping towards what they imagine to be the will of a supreme being and that their God has been made in the image of man?
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Post by krickitt on Aug 2, 2012 10:41:07 GMT -5
I follow the teachings of Jesus, and they don't hurt people if taken from the main premise of "love one another", which too many Christians forget. The Old Testament does not appeal to me much. Anyone that does not believe in heaven and hell is affected by hell... how.. not at all. As a blueprint to being a good person, Jesus is a good guy. Mohammed is not. Christianity is just part of who I am. I also try to live by the words of Don Miguel Ruiz, a Toltec Shaman. I ALSO spent over 20 years in 12 step programs, and they have a good blueprint for living a decent life, also. Muhammed offers me nothing at all. NOTHING. He is NOT an admirable person to look up to.
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Post by markindurham on Aug 2, 2012 10:45:37 GMT -5
True-- because they are nuts and do not value life as we do. Raising your own children to be suicide bombers speaks volumes.. Normal people will do anything imaginable to protect their children's lives. I have little respect for people that run away from their own countries then refuse to show respect for the countries that adopt them and protect them. Now that is a very good point. We in the Western world love life; however the mohammedians welcome death, with the promise of the afterlife, & of course, for some, the 72 virgins... Achmed the Dead Terrorist has, of course, got his own take on that latter point; perhaps someone can put it up?
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Post by krickitt on Aug 2, 2012 10:49:47 GMT -5
;D
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Post by markindurham on Aug 2, 2012 11:03:00 GMT -5
Brilliant! I think that Jeff Dunham & his 'sidekicks' are fabulous - my wife & daughter went to see the 'Controlled Chaos' show earlier this year (I was away at sea ) and absolutely loved it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2012 11:04:39 GMT -5
I could be flippant and respond that in the modern world it has become increasingly difficult to find 72 virgins but of course, as anyone who has actually discussed these matters with Muslim scholars and imams knows perfectly well, these kind of myths are allegorical and not intended to be taken literally.
One of the reasons I am NOT a religious believer (apart from the obvious intellectual problems) is the utterly repellent nature of the Old Testament.
It begins with Adam, having been caught out eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, immediately behaving in a cowardly fashion and blaming his wife.
Then we go on to Cain who murders his own brother and yet is not punished by God for his actions.
Then there is Noah's indifference to the death of most of the human race; Abraham's cheerful willingness to murder his own son; Moses inflicting 'plagues' on the Egyptians rather than simply 'punishing' Pharaoh; Joshua murdering the Canaanites; the Judges engaging in genocide against the Canaanites and even their own people; the tribe of Benjamin engaging in mass rape; Saul being CONDEMNED by Samuel for NOT committing genocide against his enemies; David murdering Uriah the Hittite so that he could marry his widow; Solomon oppressing his people; Jehu murdering people; and so it goes on.
The moral behaviour in the Old Testament that is supposedly APPROVED of by God is so utterly removed from any kind of morality based upon compassion, respect for others and so on that at times I have a certain emotional sympathy for the Gnostic claim that the Old Testament was the work of Satan and that Jehovah/Yahweh was actually Satan rather than God. The Gnostics and the many heretical branches that sprang from Gnosticism all rejected the OT utterly and saw Jesus as being an apostle of love and understanding and forgiveness and compassion.
I am NOT a religious believer - not even of any kind - and if I WERE to convert Islam is certainly the LEAST likely religion for me to choose as my new faith.
If I ever were to adopt some sort of belief in a supreme being - and I cannot foresee any set of circumstances under which that would be possible - I would have to believe in a religion of joy rather like paganism.
Certainly NOT the intolerant monotheistic cults with their dogmatic claims to certainty based upon no evidence and with a highly dubious moral code to boot.
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Post by krickitt on Aug 2, 2012 11:05:58 GMT -5
He is very good, and Achmed is hilarious! I hope Jeff has good security..
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Post by thunder on Aug 2, 2012 11:09:43 GMT -5
True-- because they are nuts and do not value life as we do. Raising your own children to be suicide bombers speaks volumes.. Normal people will do anything imaginable to protect their children's lives. I have little respect for people that run away from their own countries then refuse to show respect for the countries that adopt them and protect them. The word "normal" is a relative term. Compared to what? What's normal you us isn't necessarily normal to others. Obviously, people who feel honored by their sons blowing themselves up for the cause, or murdering their daughters because (insert your everyday, mundane activity here) don't have the same value system as us. Breaking down those beliefs, I feel, is the key to change.
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Post by markindurham on Aug 2, 2012 11:41:51 GMT -5
He is very good, and Achmed is hilarious! I hope Jeff has good security.. Walter is class too ;D As for security, quite...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2012 11:42:38 GMT -5
If you go to a Muslim doctor do you automatically assume he (or she) is planning to murder you? I assume that a muzzie "doctor" reads the Qu'ran, which justifies murdering me. I would therefore insist on a non-muzzie doctor. If you go to a curry house do you automatically assume that the Muslim owner is trying to poison you? He has every reason to, so I would choose a different restaurant. A muslim is no better than a nazi. They're all the same.
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Post by krickitt on Aug 2, 2012 11:50:47 GMT -5
Thunder-- there is no breaking down those beliefs. Islam is an ancient religion, and it is what it is. Either we go in to the Muslim nations and blow things up trying to modernize these people, (which does not work, obviously), or we leave them alone and let them kill each other off. When people living in our countries still kill their wives and kids for disobeying Islam I see little we can do except try to protect ourselves. Clearly our way of life does not impress them at all.
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Post by thunder on Aug 2, 2012 12:06:38 GMT -5
Thunder-- there is no breaking down those beliefs. Islam is an ancient religion, and it is what it is. Either we go in to the Muslim nations and blow things up trying to modernize these people, (which does not work, obviously), or we leave them alone and let them kill each other off. When people living in our countries still kill their wives and kids for disobeying Islam I see little we can do except try to protect ourselves. Clearly our way of life does not impress them at all. Military and police interrogators do it all the time. I once watched a military interrogator being interviewed. He said that interrogators will "...change their world for them." He then added something like... "They'll be unsure of where they are in the world, how they fit in." I can't find the exact quote, but he said that by showing them mistakes and errors in their religion, interrogators were able to sway the opinions of the captives... turn them to the other side, and that was how they obtained information. "How we change what others think, feel, believe and do."changingminds.org/techniques/interrogation/interrogation.htm
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Post by mouse on Aug 2, 2012 12:08:40 GMT -5
Sorry, Mike, and I do respect you and biglin's opinions, but no one is killing people all over the world in the name of Jesus. I could care less what religion people practice, or if they practice none at all, but no one has the right to mass murder in the name of God, or believe they have the right to violently conquer the entire world in the name of God-- Christians do not do that. Apples and oranges.. Their fanaticism has NOTHING to do with Islam and yet their tally of murder is horrific. . fanatism has every thing to do with islam...and you know it it started with blood letting and will end in bloodletting mark said.."""Bottom line - ALL religions are man-made, and are ALL, ultimately, about CONTROL.""" and he is absolutely correct
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Post by mouse on Aug 2, 2012 12:14:40 GMT -5
cKrickitt, how DO you deal with the many downright repulsive passages in the Bible? Do you believe that every word in the Bible is literally true and that it is the direct words of God that are being proclaimed in it? """Krickitt, how DO you deal with the many downright repulsive passages in the Bible?""" easily i should think...discount the old testement its nothing more than a history of the jewish people..and is very clear on that point christians by deffinition follow the words and example of christ..otherwise they wouldnt be called christians ""Do you believe that every word in the Bible is literally true and that it is the direct words of God that are being proclaimed in it?""" bit of a silly question as it isnt even half way pretending to be the unalterable word of god considering all the stories and all the writers and the time span
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