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Post by markindurham on Aug 1, 2012 16:03:15 GMT -5
Exactly. OK, no doubt someone will now pop up & say that the same thing applies to some homicidal maniac who suddenly starts shooting up a cinema... ...but said maniac is just that, a maniac, not someone doing it because his instruction manual told him to... So what is your attitude towards right-wing Christians in the US who hae bombed abortion clinics and killed people because their 'instruction manual' has told them to? I despise them and everything they stand for - they are terrorists too Next...
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Post by krickitt on Aug 1, 2012 17:22:17 GMT -5
I'm a Christian, and lots of people I know are Christians, and we are the first to speak out when some idiot Christian kills an abortion doctor or anyone else in the name of Christianity. That is NOT Christian and no real Christian should remain silent. Just like Muslims should all be screaming bloody murder about Islamic terrorism.. which not many do.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2012 18:22:05 GMT -5
I'm a Christian, and lots of people I know are Christians, and we are the first to speak out when some idiot Christian kills an abortion doctor or anyone else in the name of Christianity. That is NOT Christian and no real Christian should remain silent. Just like Muslims should all be screaming bloody murder about Islamic terrorism.. which not many do. The sad thing is that they do, Krickitt. A million Turks marched AGAINST Islamic terrorism and fundamentalism. There have been literally hundreds of condemnations of it by everyone from senior clerics downwards. Unfortunately the media has a vested interest in promoting hatred and finding excuses for conflict. After all, war has always been good for business and since the key players behind the scenes are motivated by a desire to impose the iron shackles of capitalist slavery upon the peoples of the world they use war and hatred as tools to deceive and mislead otherwise decent people into behaving in a way that I consider thoroughly immoral. If you do not begin your morality from the basis of respect for others rather than from a judgmental position of arrogance and superiority you are already half-way down the slippery slope of intolerance, bigotry and incompassionate behaviour. As the ancient Romans said, cui bono? Who benefits from all this engineered conflict?
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Post by krickitt on Aug 1, 2012 18:43:13 GMT -5
Well, if it is media manipulated-- possibly. I sure don't hear much, or read much, about Muslims fighting against extremists. Having read some of their holy writings I figured they are too afraid to speak out. These guys going around killing infidels are pretty serious, and an infidel Muslim is the worst infidel of all in their eyes. That is about the most slack I can cut them, to be honest. If Christians ever start going on murderous rampages killing people and trying to take over the world by force I could no longer be a Christian... If the latter writings of Islam are supposed to supersede the former writings, then they are ordered to Jihad. To me it seems the opposite of the Old Testament vs. the New Testament. I could not be a Muslim. I could not be a Christian except for Jesus and the New Testament. I don't think all Muslims are terrorists, but how can they deny what their holy books tell them.. I know lots of Muslims through my job, and never hear a kind word from them about the USA even though they live free and practice their religions freely here. Most of them are FROM the ME, and they choose to live here.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2012 18:52:56 GMT -5
Well, if it is media manipulated-- possibly. I sure don't hear much, or read much, about Muslims fighting against extremists. Having read some of their holy writings I figured they are too afraid to speak out. These guys going around killing infidels are pretty serious, and an infidel Muslim is the worst infidel of all in their eyes. That is about the most slack I can cut them, to be honest. If Christians ever start going on murderous rampages killing people and trying to take over the world by force I could no longer be a Christian... If the latter writings of Islam are supposed to supersede the former writings, then they are ordered to Jihad. To me it seems the opposite of the Old Testament vs. the New Testament. I could not be a Muslim. I could not be a Christian except for Jesus and the New Testament. I don't think all Muslims are terrorists, but how can they deny what their holy books tell them.. I know lots of Muslims through my job, and never hear a kind word from them about the USA even though they live free and practice their religions freely here. Most of them are FROM the ME, and they choose to live here. Various links have been posted on this board and I believe Lin has also posted some on your own forum, Krickitt. I sometimes think it behoves us all to seek to put ourselves in the position of the person we are condemning. If we look at the three great monotheistic religions of the world what do we find? The Old Testament was a direct revelation from God to the Jews and assured them that they were the chosen people (for a non-believer such as myself an indistinguishable concept from the Nazi master race) and that they had the right to commit genocide, stone women to death for adultery, kill men for masturbating and rape women. Of course there is far more to the OT than that but there are so many examples of what I as a humanist consider utterly immoral behaviour that I find it impossible to regard it as being any sort of basis for a moral compass in life and if it truly WAS dictated to God then I have to agree with John Stuart Mill's comment 'I will call no being good to whom I cannot apply the same word to my fellow man and if such a being can sentence me to hell for not believing in him, to hell I will go.' Then the New Testament is full of misogyny and even in that there are a few passages where the light and love that liberal Christians prefer to focus upon fly straight out of the window. And the Quran equally believes it is the word of God. So we have three so-called holy books, all claiming to be the word of God, and all contradicting each other and all believed in by people who regard the disciples of the other two books as heretics at best. Muslim fundamentalism is a problem, as is Christian fundamentalism in America and Africa and Jewish fundamentalism in Israel, London and New York. All three need to learn humility and ask themselves - did some supreme being above the clouds really sit down and dictate words to other people justifying genocide, murder, rape, incest, intolerance and similar negative qualities? Far more realistic to accept that these books, like all the other sacred books of the world, were written by human beings who THOUGHT they had received some kind of divine revelation. If God really is the monster he appears in all three of these so-called religious books I really cannot understand why anyone with the slightest degree of compassion could possibly regard him as a worthy object of worship.
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Post by krickitt on Aug 1, 2012 19:05:00 GMT -5
Sorry, Mike, and I do respect you and biglin's opinions, but no one is killing people all over the world in the name of Jesus. I could care less what religion people practice, or if they practice none at all, but no one has the right to mass murder in the name of God, or believe they have the right to violently conquer the entire world in the name of God-- Christians do not do that. Apples and oranges..
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Post by markindurham on Aug 1, 2012 22:43:51 GMT -5
Well, if it is media manipulated-- possibly. I sure don't hear much, or read much, about Muslims fighting against extremists. Having read some of their holy writings I figured they are too afraid to speak out. These guys going around killing infidels are pretty serious, and an infidel Muslim is the worst infidel of all in their eyes. That is about the most slack I can cut them, to be honest. If Christians ever start going on murderous rampages killing people and trying to take over the world by force I could no longer be a Christian... If the latter writings of Islam are supposed to supersede the former writings, then they are ordered to Jihad. To me it seems the opposite of the Old Testament vs. the New Testament. I could not be a Muslim. I could not be a Christian except for Jesus and the New Testament. I don't think all Muslims are terrorists, but how can they deny what their holy books tell them.. I know lots of Muslims through my job, and never hear a kind word from them about the USA even though they live free and practice their religions freely here. Most of them are FROM the ME, and they choose to live here. Krickitt, that is EXACTLY what many of us have been saying over this side of the pond for a long time now...
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Post by markindurham on Aug 1, 2012 22:57:02 GMT -5
Well, if it is media manipulated-- possibly. I sure don't hear much, or read much, about Muslims fighting against extremists. Having read some of their holy writings I figured they are too afraid to speak out. These guys going around killing infidels are pretty serious, and an infidel Muslim is the worst infidel of all in their eyes. That is about the most slack I can cut them, to be honest. If Christians ever start going on murderous rampages killing people and trying to take over the world by force I could no longer be a Christian... If the latter writings of Islam are supposed to supersede the former writings, then they are ordered to Jihad. To me it seems the opposite of the Old Testament vs. the New Testament. I could not be a Muslim. I could not be a Christian except for Jesus and the New Testament. I don't think all Muslims are terrorists, but how can they deny what their holy books tell them.. I know lots of Muslims through my job, and never hear a kind word from them about the USA even though they live free and practice their religions freely here. Most of them are FROM the ME, and they choose to live here. Various links have been posted on this board and I believe Lin has also posted some on your own forum, Krickitt. I sometimes think it behoves us all to seek to put ourselves in the position of the person we are condemning. If we look at the three great monotheistic religions of the world what do we find? The Old Testament was a direct revelation from God to the Jews and assured them that they were the chosen people (for a non-believer such as myself an indistinguishable concept from the Nazi master race) and that they had the right to commit genocide, stone women to death for adultery, kill men for masturbating and rape women. Of course there is far more to the OT than that but there are so many examples of what I as a humanist consider utterly immoral behaviour that I find it impossible to regard it as being any sort of basis for a moral compass in life and if it truly WAS dictated to God then I have to agree with John Stuart Mill's comment 'I will call no being good to whom I cannot apply the same word to my fellow man and if such a being can sentence me to hell for not believing in him, to hell I will go.' Then the New Testament is full of misogyny and even in that there are a few passages where the light and love that liberal Christians prefer to focus upon fly straight out of the window. And the Quran equally believes it is the word of God. So we have three so-called holy books, all claiming to be the word of God, and all contradicting each other and all believed in by people who regard the disciples of the other two books as heretics at best. Muslim fundamentalism is a problem, as is Christian fundamentalism in America and Africa and Jewish fundamentalism in Israel, London and New York. All three need to learn humility and ask themselves - did some supreme being above the clouds really sit down and dictate words to other people justifying genocide, murder, rape, incest, intolerance and similar negative qualities? Far more realistic to accept that these books, like all the other sacred books of the world, were written by human beings who THOUGHT they had received some kind of divine revelation. If God really is the monster he appears in all three of these so-called religious books I really cannot understand why anyone with the slightest degree of compassion could possibly regard him as a worthy object of worship. Bottom line - ALL religions are man-made, and are ALL, ultimately, about CONTROL. Some, of course, enforce their control not so much by fear (generally more of the 'behave in a manner befitting your station as a Christian now, or you won't get to heaven' in the case of the majority of the likes of Christianity) but by barbarity... Indeed, once you get past the normally quoted proponents of THAT style of control, the mohammedians, look at the goings-on over the modern cult of Scientology - what a bunch of control freaks they are, particularly if you step out of line
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Post by mouse on Aug 2, 2012 2:25:33 GMT -5
If you do not begin your morality from the basis of respect for others respect is earned and respect is a two way street
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Post by fretslider on Aug 2, 2012 4:11:07 GMT -5
I'm a Christian, and lots of people I know are Christians, and we are the first to speak out when some idiot Christian kills an abortion doctor or anyone else in the name of Christianity. That is NOT Christian and no real Christian should remain silent. Just like Muslims should all be screaming bloody murder about Islamic terrorism.. which not many do. The sad thing is that they do, Krickitt. A million Turks marched AGAINST Islamic terrorism and fundamentalism. There have been literally hundreds of condemnations of it by everyone from senior clerics downwards. Unfortunately the media has a vested interest in promoting hatred and finding excuses for conflict. After all, war has always been good for business and since the key players behind the scenes are motivated by a desire to impose the iron shackles of capitalist slavery upon the peoples of the world they use war and hatred as tools to deceive and mislead otherwise decent people into behaving in a way that I consider thoroughly immoral. If you do not begin your morality from the basis of respect for others rather than from a judgmental position of arrogance and superiority you are already half-way down the slippery slope of intolerance, bigotry and incompassionate behaviour. As the ancient Romans said, cui bono? Who benefits from all this engineered conflict? "Who benefits from all this engineered conflict?"The mad Mullahs.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2012 10:18:45 GMT -5
Sorry, Mike, and I do respect you and biglin's opinions, but no one is killing people all over the world in the name of Jesus. I could care less what religion people practice, or if they practice none at all, but no one has the right to mass murder in the name of God, or believe they have the right to violently conquer the entire world in the name of God-- Christians do not do that. Apples and oranges.. My attitude is that whether it is religion, nationalism and some other kind of belief system the essential problem is not what people believe but a) how they behave; b) (closely related) the degree of fanaticism which they display. I have been on this earth for 54 years now and in the course of my life I have met fanatical Christians who certainly DID employ violence and killing in support of their ideology, fanatical Jews who have done the same, fanatical Muslims, fanatical Marxists and so on. The problem is the fanaticism and the majority of Muslims are NOT fanatics. Any more than the majority of people with any belief system are. It is dishonest to pretend that the actions of a minority - however large - represent a sufficient reason to demonise every member of that group. I suggest you read up about, for instance, the Lord's Resistance Army in Africa, the Shining Path in South America, the Naxalites in India and the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka to see examples of people who are motivated by an entirely NON-Muslim fanaticism. The same was true of ETA and remains true of elements within it and the same is true of the so-called Real IRA and Continuity IRA. Their fanaticism has NOTHING to do with Islam and yet their tally of murder is horrific. And, if one wishes to be brutally honest, the overwhelming majority of victims of Muslim terrorism have been - Muslims. Hardly the most effective strategy.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2012 10:27:36 GMT -5
If you do not begin your morality from the basis of respect for others respect is earned and respect is a two way street Now there we disagree fundamentally because you and I begin from opposing positions. I start from a position of respect for others and only alter my attitude if they give me sufficient reason to do so. You start from a default position of contempt and so from the very beginning you are in attack mode and not willing to show respect. (I am not personalising this, simply trying to explain how and why our base positions are different. Just as I begin from the basis that all morality and politics should be based on a foundation of human rights while you do not believe that humans have any rights, not even the right not to be murdered, so too you begin from a position of utter condemnation and so it is difficult for anyone to find areas where a compromise is possible. If you go to a Muslim doctor do you automatically assume he (or she) is planning to murder you? If you go to a curry house do you automatically assume that the Muslim owner is trying to poison you? Of course you do not. And if you walk down the street are you more or less likely to be mugged by a Muslim? Less likely, of course. And so it goes on. Life is a patchwork quilt of experiences and interactions. Blanket condemnation is as irrational as blanket praise.
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Post by krickitt on Aug 2, 2012 10:28:45 GMT -5
True-- because they are nuts and do not value life as we do. Raising your own children to be suicide bombers speaks volumes.. Normal people will do anything imaginable to protect their children's lives. I have little respect for people that run away from their own countries then refuse to show respect for the countries that adopt them and protect them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2012 10:29:11 GMT -5
The sad thing is that they do, Krickitt. A million Turks marched AGAINST Islamic terrorism and fundamentalism. There have been literally hundreds of condemnations of it by everyone from senior clerics downwards. Unfortunately the media has a vested interest in promoting hatred and finding excuses for conflict. After all, war has always been good for business and since the key players behind the scenes are motivated by a desire to impose the iron shackles of capitalist slavery upon the peoples of the world they use war and hatred as tools to deceive and mislead otherwise decent people into behaving in a way that I consider thoroughly immoral. If you do not begin your morality from the basis of respect for others rather than from a judgmental position of arrogance and superiority you are already half-way down the slippery slope of intolerance, bigotry and incompassionate behaviour. As the ancient Romans said, cui bono? Who benefits from all this engineered conflict? "Who benefits from all this engineered conflict?"The mad Mullahs. The arms salesmen, the capitalists, the imperialists, the religious right in America and terrorists like Breivik. And of course the EDL!
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Post by fretslider on Aug 2, 2012 10:29:22 GMT -5
Mike, when was ETA ever a religious organisation?
Face it, Islam is a nasty, pernicious, violent and dangerous ideology.
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