Post by biglin on May 18, 2011 10:01:22 GMT -5
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13436429
BBC News Politics
18 May 2011 Last updated at 13:10
Sack Ken Clarke over rape comments - Miliband
Ken Clarke should be sacked as justice secretary following his remarks about rape on BBC Radio 5 live, Labour leader Ed Miliband has said.
Mr Clarke disputed claims changes to sentencing rules could see rapists let out in 15 months for pleading guilty.
He said violent "serious rape" had longer terms and average sentencing figures were skewed by underage sex between consenting teenagers.
Mr Miliband said the PM should distance himself from the remarks.
The row follows plans to halve jail terms for people who plead guilty early, including rapists, who on average are sentenced to five years.
At present, a defendant entering an early guilty plea can earn up to a third off their sentence. But proposals to halve sentences are outlined in a Green Paper on sentencing in England and Wales.
At prime minister's questions, Mr Miliband said Mr Clarke had suggested there were "serious rapes and other categories of rape" adding: "The justice secretary can't speak for the women of this country when he makes comments like that."
David Cameron told MPs rape was "one of the most serious crimes that there is and it should be met with proper punishment" and the "real disgrace" was that only 6% of reported rape cases ended in a conviction.
He said there was already a plea bargaining system in the UK and the government was only consulting on whether to extend - and had not yet decided what crimes it should include.
The prime minister said he had not heard the interview but the government's position was clear - that rape was serious and should be punished "very severely".
But Mr Miliband told him to go back and listen to the interview adding: "The justice secretary should not be in his post at the end of today."
'Strongest example'
Earlier Labour former solicitor general Vera Baird QC told BBC Radio 4's Today programme the standard sentence for rape started at five years.
"If you are talking about halving it to two-and-a-half years and then a person gets out halfway through their sentence on licence which is usual, then we are talking about sentences of 15 months which have no regard at all for the gravity of the offence and gives no time for rehabilitation or training," she said.
The current discount of a third for an early guilty plea was the maximum and not automatic, she added.
But Mr Clarke told Victoria Derbyshire on BBC Radio 5 Live that pushing for an early guilty plea would stop rapists "messing about" and denying charges and would relieve the victim of "going through the whole ordeal again and of being called a liar... we still have far too many people who don't plead guilty in the first place".
He dismissed suggestions rapists could be out in 15 months as "total nonsense".
On being told that the sentence for rape was five years on average, according to the Council of Circuit Judges, Mr Clarke said: "That includes date rape, 17-year-olds having intercourse with 15 year olds.."
"Serious rape - I don't think many judges give five years for a forcible rape frankly, the tariff is longer than that. A serious rape with violence and an unwilling woman - the tariff is longer than that."
When BBC interviewer Victoria Derbyshire interrupted to say "Rape is rape, with respect" Mr Clarke replied: "No it's not, if an 18-year-old has sex with a 15 year old and she's perfectly willing, that is rape. Because she is under age, she can't consent... What you and I are talking about is we are talking about a man forcibly having sex with a woman and she doesn't want to - a serious crime."
He also said date rapes were included in the figures which could be "sometimes very confusing" adding: "Date rape can be as serious as the worst rapes but date rapes... in my very old experience of being in trials [from his time as a practising lawyer]... they do vary extraordinarily one from another, and in the end the judge has to decide on the circumstances."
He was challenged by a caller from a woman in London, who said she had been the victim of an attempted rape while training for the London marathon - and had fought the criminal justice system for 688 days, only for the rapist to have his sentence reduced for pleading guilty - and then go on to commit another offence.
She told him: "It happened to me. It's a disaster, especially with sex offenders."
A Downing Street spokesman said Mr Clarke was not relaying government policy and would want to make it clear how seriously he takes all rape cases. Asked if Mr Clarke would survive the day in his post, he added: "Yes".
Shadow home secretary Yvette Cooper said Mr Clarke "has to go if he stands by these comments because they are absolutely appalling".
But Mr Clarke told the BBC the "most extraordinary spin" had been put on his comments: "Rape is a very serious crime, that is undoubtedly the case, but I responded to average sentence figures being put to me."
He said consenting sex between underage teenagers "does not usually get the same sort of sentence as a violent attack on a woman who doesn't know the man attacking her" which was likely to result in a much longer sentence.
"Individual cases get different sentences because the judge has to reflect how bad a case of rape this is - but all cases of rape are bad, it is a serious crime."
BBC News Politics
18 May 2011 Last updated at 13:10
Sack Ken Clarke over rape comments - Miliband
Ken Clarke should be sacked as justice secretary following his remarks about rape on BBC Radio 5 live, Labour leader Ed Miliband has said.
Mr Clarke disputed claims changes to sentencing rules could see rapists let out in 15 months for pleading guilty.
He said violent "serious rape" had longer terms and average sentencing figures were skewed by underage sex between consenting teenagers.
Mr Miliband said the PM should distance himself from the remarks.
The row follows plans to halve jail terms for people who plead guilty early, including rapists, who on average are sentenced to five years.
At present, a defendant entering an early guilty plea can earn up to a third off their sentence. But proposals to halve sentences are outlined in a Green Paper on sentencing in England and Wales.
At prime minister's questions, Mr Miliband said Mr Clarke had suggested there were "serious rapes and other categories of rape" adding: "The justice secretary can't speak for the women of this country when he makes comments like that."
David Cameron told MPs rape was "one of the most serious crimes that there is and it should be met with proper punishment" and the "real disgrace" was that only 6% of reported rape cases ended in a conviction.
He said there was already a plea bargaining system in the UK and the government was only consulting on whether to extend - and had not yet decided what crimes it should include.
The prime minister said he had not heard the interview but the government's position was clear - that rape was serious and should be punished "very severely".
But Mr Miliband told him to go back and listen to the interview adding: "The justice secretary should not be in his post at the end of today."
'Strongest example'
Earlier Labour former solicitor general Vera Baird QC told BBC Radio 4's Today programme the standard sentence for rape started at five years.
"If you are talking about halving it to two-and-a-half years and then a person gets out halfway through their sentence on licence which is usual, then we are talking about sentences of 15 months which have no regard at all for the gravity of the offence and gives no time for rehabilitation or training," she said.
The current discount of a third for an early guilty plea was the maximum and not automatic, she added.
But Mr Clarke told Victoria Derbyshire on BBC Radio 5 Live that pushing for an early guilty plea would stop rapists "messing about" and denying charges and would relieve the victim of "going through the whole ordeal again and of being called a liar... we still have far too many people who don't plead guilty in the first place".
He dismissed suggestions rapists could be out in 15 months as "total nonsense".
On being told that the sentence for rape was five years on average, according to the Council of Circuit Judges, Mr Clarke said: "That includes date rape, 17-year-olds having intercourse with 15 year olds.."
"Serious rape - I don't think many judges give five years for a forcible rape frankly, the tariff is longer than that. A serious rape with violence and an unwilling woman - the tariff is longer than that."
When BBC interviewer Victoria Derbyshire interrupted to say "Rape is rape, with respect" Mr Clarke replied: "No it's not, if an 18-year-old has sex with a 15 year old and she's perfectly willing, that is rape. Because she is under age, she can't consent... What you and I are talking about is we are talking about a man forcibly having sex with a woman and she doesn't want to - a serious crime."
He also said date rapes were included in the figures which could be "sometimes very confusing" adding: "Date rape can be as serious as the worst rapes but date rapes... in my very old experience of being in trials [from his time as a practising lawyer]... they do vary extraordinarily one from another, and in the end the judge has to decide on the circumstances."
He was challenged by a caller from a woman in London, who said she had been the victim of an attempted rape while training for the London marathon - and had fought the criminal justice system for 688 days, only for the rapist to have his sentence reduced for pleading guilty - and then go on to commit another offence.
She told him: "It happened to me. It's a disaster, especially with sex offenders."
A Downing Street spokesman said Mr Clarke was not relaying government policy and would want to make it clear how seriously he takes all rape cases. Asked if Mr Clarke would survive the day in his post, he added: "Yes".
Shadow home secretary Yvette Cooper said Mr Clarke "has to go if he stands by these comments because they are absolutely appalling".
But Mr Clarke told the BBC the "most extraordinary spin" had been put on his comments: "Rape is a very serious crime, that is undoubtedly the case, but I responded to average sentence figures being put to me."
He said consenting sex between underage teenagers "does not usually get the same sort of sentence as a violent attack on a woman who doesn't know the man attacking her" which was likely to result in a much longer sentence.
"Individual cases get different sentences because the judge has to reflect how bad a case of rape this is - but all cases of rape are bad, it is a serious crime."
again its a question of degree and the crime...most crims are scumbags of one type or another..