|
Post by men an tol on Mar 6, 2017 23:02:57 GMT -5
By the way, Anna, your idea on 'proof' would make it almost impossible for the majority of criminals to be convicted. How, to take the most obvious example, can a man 'prove' that he did NOT rape a woman? And of course as well as verification there is also a principle known as falsification. So to state that a negative cannot be proved is simply not the case. But of course that in no way supports the strong claim that God does not exist any more than it supports the strong claim that God does exist. Both claims go beyond the evidence and represent opinions rather than facts. If the defendant could not prove he did not commit a crime then the prosecution must bear the burden of proving that he DID, or that he/she most likely did, to the satisfaction of the jury or the court. That would make it harder to convict I should think. I'm a Christian so of course I believe in God, but it is a personal belief. Each of us must find our own way. Anna, you are, in my opinion, correct in your opinion that belief in a God is personal, very personal. It is seemingly different for each person. Not just among the various approaches to being a Christian, but through all religions. Throughout the known history of humans there has been all sorts of approaches. So too with Atheism as it appears to have always been with us and it too is very personal and covers a number of versions. Where we (humans) seem to run into trouble is when an approach tries to make others follow their way as the only way. It may have been easier for a local community that has many connections among its people to exist, if not in real isolation, at least more remote. By and large those days are passing and the differing perspectives can easily rub abrasively on each other, and that is only considering those that are similar. As the approaches that are different come into closer contact, they can become abrasive. Will this change overtime? In my opinion and then slowly. How do those individuals committed to a religion come into contact with an Atheist? Or the other way around? At least do so and maintain peaceful and productive dialog.
|
|
|
Post by Scottish Lassie on Mar 6, 2017 23:28:30 GMT -5
Evidence is not in itself sufficient to constitute proof. And nor is lack of evidence in itself sufficient to constitute falsity. The only rational position is the agnostic one. Atheism, like theism, goes beyond the available evidence and is as much a leap in the dark as belief. Hi Mike Marshall, If things are happening to me that I am aware of, who or what is causing it to happen? If I am being shown certain things that have nothing to do with the ordinary things that happen on this physical plane, who or what is showing it to me. I am nor arranging it, i have no clue about it until it happens. My reasoning tells me that some intelligence is causing it to happen and it certainly is not any of you lot. I have chosen to give that Intelligence the name God as has been suggested from other human beings who have experienced similar occurrences in the past.
|
|
|
Post by Scottish Lassie on Mar 7, 2017 0:23:10 GMT -5
Hi Men an tol, It is mentioned in the Bible that we are seeing or understanding life as if through a glass darkly, which means to me, that we are not seeing the full truth, and in order to find it we have been instructed to seek and then we shall find it. We have also been instructed to ask and we will receive the truth. It appears that an awful lot of people are refusing to heed this advice. If they refuse to listen, then they are not going to learn very fast, that's for sure.!!!
|
|
|
Post by men an tol on Mar 7, 2017 1:02:23 GMT -5
Hi Men an tol, It is mentioned in the Bible that we are seeing or understanding life as if through a glass darkly, which means to me, that we are not seeing the full truth, and in order to find it we have been instructed to seek and then we shall find it. We have also been instructed to ask and we will receive the truth. It appears that an awful lot of people are refusing to heed this advice. If they refuse to listen, then they are not going to learn very fast, that's for sure.!!! This is part of Christendom, and in various forms a part of other religions. Of course, this is also part of Atheism. It is part of being human. Seeking knowledge is human and when gathered in communities. With or without religion, our seeking knowledge is part of who we are and defines, who we are going and when we have been.
|
|
|
Post by Scottish Lassie on Mar 7, 2017 3:17:51 GMT -5
Hi Men an tol, It is mentioned in the Bible that we are seeing or understanding life as if through a glass darkly, which means to me, that we are not seeing the full truth, and in order to find it we have been instructed to seek and then we shall find it. We have also been instructed to ask and we will receive the truth. It appears that an awful lot of people are refusing to heed this advice. If they refuse to listen, then they are not going to learn very fast, that's for sure.!!! This is part of Christendom, and in various forms a part of other religions. Of course, this is also part of Atheism. It is part of being human. Seeking knowledge is human and when gathered in communities. With or without religion, our seeking knowledge is part of who we are and defines, who we are going and when we have been. Hi Men an tol, The pity of it all as far as I am concerned, is the fact that you think that only the physical plane exists. As long as this is the prevailing thought pattern, nobody is going to believe in spiritual dimensions and no one will ever evolve spiritually which is what is important.
|
|
|
Post by mouse on Mar 7, 2017 4:01:41 GMT -5
"""spirituality - concern with things of the spirit otherworldliness, spiritism, spiritualism internality, inwardness - preoccupation with what concerns human inner nature (especially ethical or ideological values); "Socrates' inwardness, integrity, and inquisitiveness"- """" the above is what I understand to be spiritual...indepths self probing probing..awareness and toward betterment of self and understanding ... not thinking some ones been in the house which is down to a very normal use of the 5 senses Hi Mouse, you are beginning to exasperate me. Why should I suddenly know ( Feel Sure) that someone has been in my house, there was no logical reason to even think that. I am certainly not expecting anyone to enter my home when I am out. I told you it is known as the gifts of the spirit, but you refuse to believe me. I should know whether it is true or not because I am the one who had the experience. It is the senses that tell the brain and the brain analyses it and then comes to a conclusion which then becomes fixed as a belief. God knows everything and as I and others are heading towards the Godhead, when we reach a certain point in our spiritual development we are given the gift of knowing. I was also a spiritual healer many years ago, and I would also know what the person suffered from and where about on the person's body I should lay my hands so as to ensure a healing. Once again I suppose it is all just a figment of my imagination, according to you and some others. No wonder I am exasperated.!!! then be exasperated..i am not going to agree with or anyone else just because you or they want me to or have a hizzy fit ... """ Why should I suddenly know ( Feel Sure) that someone has been in my house""the answer is very simple and NOTHING to do with spirituality and every thing do do with being human..having senses and being aware..we ALL have those sences they are nothing special and those senses are built into to us as an asset to survival..so no its not a figment of imagination but its not anything special either we all know the feeling of some one looking at us etc ..and when we look around sure enough some one is and we catch their eye .. its no great deal..and the majority of people take it for what it is and do not up an every day happening into the realms of being some thing special or as being given a gift of knowing dont take my word for it..look it up..... now you bring in spiritual healing ..some thing not mentioned before
|
|
|
Post by mouse on Mar 7, 2017 5:03:48 GMT -5
Hi Fretslider, You are right, it is no skin off my nose. The snag is that I happen to care, so want others to share in what I think is the absolute truth. At no time have I felt exasperated except in my last post to Mouse. I just give the facts as I see and experience them, in a calm, positive way. It is an inborn trait that most people do want to share their goodfortune so will pass it on if thye can, that is all that I am doing. I am sure that I have found the truth so naturally I want to shout it to the world. I know perfectly well that people have their own experiences and can stay with them for as long as they like. But it is rather difficult for me to have to watch a person concentrate only on this earth plane when I know from my experiences that there is a whole lot more. I will continue to express my beliefs in my posts if they are relevant to the posts that have been sent to me, unless ofcourse you wish to deprive me of that opportunity by refusing to accept my posts. I hate to see time wasted but if that is how it must be then so be it. I know that I have done my best to share the truth with others, no doubt I will still keep plugging away as time goes by.!!! we have two very interesting assertions.. both are believers who are intollorant of the bleifes or thinking of others which are different from their own... 1/ """No I don't condiser my thought to be equall to theirs I consided mine to be superior.""" 2/ ""I just give the facts as I see and experience them, in a calm, positive way."" no 1/ elevates his thinking far beyond rationality or logic or scholarship no 2/elevates random thoughts and happenings and presents as indisputable facts SL wrote """I will continue to express my beliefs in my posts if they are relevant to the posts that have been sent to me, unless of course you wish to deprive me of that opportunity by refusing to accept my posts.""" who and when has anyone made any attempt to deprive you of the opportunity or ability to post ?? ..I sugest no one has done so nor has any intentions of doing so ...so whats with the sudden victimhood ? in general posts are not specificly to one person unless named ..and even then any poster can answer any post on any thread
|
|
|
Post by fretslider on Mar 7, 2017 6:45:31 GMT -5
One day, kronks, one day you'll twig how science works. Hint one does not set out to prove a negative You say there is a god, prove it. Stop wasting time with these nonsensical arguments. Tip: If you think you are being visited by aliens, gods, spirits, ghosts, or any other magical beings, just ask them for information that you can verify, specifically with a neutral third-party that would prove their existence. Science works as God intended it to work You dpn't kniow anything about anything you are not even scientifc, science does not have mindlesss rules. I've already given you evidence of a supermnatural being based on indisputable logic, if you won't believe that you won't beleive any other witnesses either. If I took you to hell and back you still would not believe it.Let's unpack that gibberish. You dpn't kniow anything about anything you are not even scientifc, science does not have mindlesss rules.My honours degree in zoology and botany say's otherwise. Science does indeed have rules, yet you refuse to recognise them with ridiculous demands to prove a negative. You're wasting my time again kronks. I've already given you evidence of a supermnatural being based on indisputable logicI fell off the chair at that one! Very funny. Based on indisputable logic? That is clearly no substitute for real evidence. You can play Schroedinger's cat any way you want. If I took you to hell and back you still would not believe it.You can't and everybody knows it. Duh.
|
|
|
Post by mouse on Mar 7, 2017 9:08:23 GMT -5
Hi Men an tol, It is mentioned in the Bible that we are seeing or understanding life as if through a glass darkly, which means to me, that we are not seeing the full truth, and in order to find it we have been instructed to seek and then we shall find it. We have also been instructed to ask and we will receive the truth. It appears that an awful lot of people are refusing to heed this advice. If they refuse to listen, then they are not going to learn very fast, that's for sure.!!! This is part of Christendom, and in various forms a part of other religions. Of course, this is also part of Atheism. It is part of being human. Seeking knowledge is human and when gathered in communities. With or without religion, our seeking knowledge is part of who we are and defines, who we are going and when we have been. agreed Men......I would say humans have gathered knowledge and learned very well...considering how much we do know and how far we have come from our beginings we have learned a great deal and are on the cusp of learning even more and far from looking through a glass darkly we have looked toward the light ..sought enlightenment ..sought answers...we have gone beyond the imaginings of our forefathers in all directions and in all subjects ..we still have a long way to travel... that we are looking therough a glass darkly ...doesn't cut the mustard we as a species have used the brains and the imadgination we were blessed with....if they were not to be used why would reasoning and questioning be inbuilt its irrational to say people refuse to listen and are not learning ...because if you go down the religious god route...then mankind is doing exactly what was intended..what he was made for ..to .think..find knowledge and learn ...so there is no place for any one to grumble you cant have it two ways
|
|
|
Post by men an tol on Mar 7, 2017 9:35:11 GMT -5
This is part of Christendom, and in various forms a part of other religions. Of course, this is also part of Atheism. It is part of being human. Seeking knowledge is human and when gathered in communities. With or without religion, our seeking knowledge is part of who we are and defines, who we are going and when we have been. Hi Men an tol, The pity of it all as far as I am concerned, is the fact that you think that only the physical plane exists. As long as this is the prevailing thought pattern, nobody is going to believe in spiritual dimensions and no one will ever evolve spiritually which is what is important. Scottish Lassie, everyone here understands that you feel that way. You have made it abundantly clear how you feel, how you believe, and even though have denied in the past that you are protolyzing, your every word posted seems to be a disappointment that others are not coming to your beliefs. You will most likely continue with similar postings and receive the same results. I suggested in the past that you do a little study on the sources of your beliefs, obviously, you haven’t. The Founder of your belief system clearly did so and did so along with his friend L. Ron Hubbard. From their efforts sprang two different, yet similar, organizations which come from the same source, Gnosticism. Sprang from but are nowhere as rich in belief systems as is Gnosticism. When the codices found near Nag Hammadi (the so called Gnostic Gospels) in Upper Egypt in 1945 they were (for a short time) a popular sensation. It was subsequent to that finding that Paul Twitchell and L. Ron Hubbard work together for a time during the early development of Scientology. Paul Twitchell then left and eventually began Eckankar in 1965. Both Scientology and Eckankar are shadow reflections of Gnosticism. None of what you post is unknown and that if that is what you choose to believe, good for you, but to expect others to also have some flash of insight because of you expressing what you offer as personal experiences is unrealistic. If I were you I would look into the same sources used by L. Ron Hubbard and Paul Twitchell and in doing so the obvious place to begin is with Gnosticism.
|
|
|
Post by Scottish Lassie on Mar 7, 2017 11:32:33 GMT -5
Hi Fretslider, You are right, it is no skin off my nose. The snag is that I happen to care, so want others to share in what I think is the absolute truth. At no time have I felt exasperated except in my last post to Mouse. I just give the facts as I see and experience them, in a calm, positive way. It is an inborn trait that most people do want to share their goodfortune so will pass it on if they can, that is all that I am doing. I am sure that I have found the truth so naturally I want to shout it to the world. I know perfectly well that people have their own experiences and can stay with them for as long as they like. But it is rather difficult for me to have to watch a person concentrate only on this earth plane when I know from my experiences that there is a whole lot more. I will continue to express my beliefs in my posts if they are relevant to the posts that have been sent to me, unless ofcourse you wish to deprive me of that opportunity by refusing to accept my posts. I hate to see time wasted but if that is how it must be then so be it. I know that I have done my best to share the truth with others, no doubt I will still keep plugging away as time goes by.!!! we have two very interesting assertions.. both are believers who are intollorant of the bleifes or thinking of others which are different from their own... 1/ """No I don't condiser my thought to be equall to theirs I consided mine to be superior.""" 2/ ""I just give the facts as I see and experience them, in a calm, positive way."" no 1/ elevates his thinking far beyond rationality or logic or scholarship no 2/elevates random thoughts and happenings and presents as indisputable facts SL wrote """I will continue to express my beliefs in my posts if they are relevant to the posts that have been sent to me, unless of course you wish to deprive me of that opportunity by refusing to accept my posts.""" who and when has anyone made any attempt to deprive you of the opportunity or ability to post ?? ..I sugest no one has done so nor has any intentions of doing so ...so whats with the sudden victimhood ? in general posts are not specificly to one person unless named ..and even then any poster can answer any post on any thread Hi Mouse, At no time have I said that I am superior, I have said that we are all in the same boat therefore open to the same opportunities. Some people accept these opportunities, some don't. I have spent my life seeking so why shouldn't I be involved in Spiritual healing? I have learned Magnetic healing, healing with precious stones and last of all, Reikie healing. I have done Judo, Tai Chi and many others, There is nothing that I have not been involved in that would be beneficial to myself and others. What's it to you? I have many interests, I am not a stick in the mud, I investigate. .All that is in the past now, I lead a very quiet life, but am still learning. I have been an avid reader all my life, I watch Quantum Physic programs on TV and am interested in documentaries on all sort of things. I keep my mind alert.
|
|
|
Post by Scottish Lassie on Mar 7, 2017 12:23:38 GMT -5
Hi Men an tol, I will have to buy a book on Gnosticism as I am prevented from browsing the Internet for whatever reason. Paul Twichell was a seeker and I thank him for bringing ECKANKAR to the world, as it has helped to explain my own experiences.
He was chosen by the Spiritual Hierarchy to be the one who would do this. He was visited at home on a regular basis by a Master who dictated to him all that ECKANKAR stands for. Whether it is derived from Gnosticism or similar, it was still dictated to him.
I have also had a Master visit me in my home but evidently for a different reason, others have also had this experience when it was thought to be necessary. It is quite commonplace. These people have all been destined to find ECKANKAR and become a member.
You are right In regard to the fact that I am slightly disappointed, but not because I want you to join ECKANKAR, but because of the fact, that as long as you stll see the physical dimension as all that there is. You will be stuck here with no hope for spiritual progress in the very near future, and this makes me feel so sad.
|
|
|
Post by men an tol on Mar 7, 2017 12:45:47 GMT -5
Hi Men an tol, I will have to buy a book on Gnosticism as I am prevented from browsing the Internet for whatever reason. Paul Twichell was a seeker and I thank him for bringing ECKANKAR to the world, as it has helped to explain my own experiences. He was chosen by the Spiritual Hierarchy to be the one who would do this. He was visited at home on a regular basis by a Master who dictated to him all that ECKANKAR stands for. Whether it is derived from Gnosticism or similar, it was still dictated to him. I have also had a Master visit me in my home but evidently for a different reason, others have also had this experience when it was thought to be necessary. It is quite commonplace. These people have all been destined to find ECKANKAR and become a member. You are right In regard to the fact that I am slightly disappointed, but not because I want you to join ECKANKAR, but because of the fact, that as long as you stll see the physical dimension as all that there is. You will be stuck here with no hope for spiritual progress in the very near future, and this makes me feel so sad. That you are happy and satified in yoour beliefs is great for you, some have different paths. I have suggested that you study Gnosticism but I am not so sure that would be a good idea, as if you really study it (just getting a book will not suffice) and getting on the internet is not the thing to do) but what you need is a local teacher who actually understands it as it is not just a root to Eckankar (and other similar approaches) but it is a development for Christianity among the scholars of those early years and is rooted in parts of Greek philosophy. If you are looking for it to be an obvious supportive path for Eckankar, you will be disappointed. While they used a lot of Gnocicism Paul Twitchell and L. Ron Hubbard alter it quite liberally. Since they had similar back grounds (Navel Intelligence and the writing of fiction) this should not be surprising.
|
|
|
Post by Scottish Lassie on Mar 7, 2017 13:01:43 GMT -5
agreed Men......I would say humans have gathered knowledge and learned very well...considering how much we do know and how far we have come from our beginings we have learned a great deal and are on the cusp of learning even more and far from looking through a glass darkly we have looked toward the light ..sought enlightenment ..sought answers...we have gone beyond the imaginings of our forefathers in all directions and in all subjects ..we still have a long way to travel... that we are looking therough a glass darkly ...doesn't cut the mustard we as a species have used the brains and the imadgination we were blessed with....if they were not to be used why would reasoning and questioning be inbuilt its irrational to say people refuse to listen and are not learning ...because if you go down the religious god route...then mankind is doing exactly what was intended..what he was made for ..to .think..find knowledge and learn ...so there is no place for any one to grumble you cant have it two ways Hi Mouse, so what have you learned about God? You are fixated on this physical dimenion with no thought of the spiritual dimensions that also exist. You are missing out on so much and you don't realise it, and it is all your own doing. May the Blessings Be.
|
|
|
Post by mouse on Mar 7, 2017 13:41:06 GMT -5
we have two very interesting assertions.. both are believers who are intollorant of the bleifes or thinking of others which are different from their own... 1/ """No I don't condiser my thought to be equall to theirs I consided mine to be superior.""" 2/ ""I just give the facts as I see and experience them, in a calm, positive way."" no 1/ elevates his thinking far beyond rationality or logic or scholarship no 2/elevates random thoughts and happenings and presents as indisputable facts SL wrote """I will continue to express my beliefs in my posts if they are relevant to the posts that have been sent to me, unless of course you wish to deprive me of that opportunity by refusing to accept my posts.""" who and when has anyone made any attempt to deprive you of the opportunity or ability to post ?? ..I sugest no one has done so nor has any intentions of doing so ...so whats with the sudden victimhood ? in general posts are not specificly to one person unless named ..and even then any poster can answer any post on any thread Hi Mouse, At no time have I said that I am superior, I have said that we are all in the same boat therefore open to the same opportunities. Some people accept these opportunities, some don't. I have spent my life seeking so why shouldn't I be involved in Spiritual healing? I have learned Magnetic healing, healing with precious stones and last of all, Reikie healing. I have done Judo, Tai Chi and many others, There is nothing that I have not been involved in that would be beneficial to myself and others. What's it to you? I have many interests, I am not a stick in the mud, I investigate. .All that is in the past now, I lead a very quiet life, but am still learning. I have been an avid reader all my life, I watch Quantum Physic programs on TV and am interested in documentaries on all sort of things. I keep my mind alert. """At no time have I said that I am superior""" and at no time have I acussed you of saying such a thing ....have a re read of what is written as for the rest I have no idea what your on about..it has NOTHING to do with your post that I was answering and quoting
|
|