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Prison
Apr 18, 2010 17:00:52 GMT -5
Post by biglin on Apr 18, 2010 17:00:52 GMT -5
I know from experience how unpopular my views on inmates' rights are but I'll go on fighting my corner because eventually the justice system WILL end up taking the morally right point of view.
Prisoners - male and female - are routinely raped by both guards and inmates, routinely brutalised, and (in the US particularly) used as slave labour and guinea pigs for unsafe medical experiments for which the prison service gets kickbacks from the drug barons.
Having seen two friends of mine so badly brutalised and raped that they tried to kill themselves, I'll NEVER give up fighting for justice for inmates.
Even the WORST prisoner is still a human being and deserves to be treated with dignity and compassion.
I don't care if that makes people think I'm some sort of wishy washy liberal or soft on crime.
I don't even care if they think I'm a hypocrite because I also support the death penalty.
Life is full of complex moral choices and, like Oscar Wilde said, 'the truth is rarely pure and never simple.'
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Deleted
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Prison
Apr 18, 2010 20:03:43 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2010 20:03:43 GMT -5
There are alot of good co's out there who genuinely take their job seriously and do good for the inmates they are in charge of but it literally scares me when I realize there are some whom the inmates are at the mercy of and no one to help them in many cases.
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Novak
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Prison
Apr 19, 2010 11:24:07 GMT -5
Post by Novak on Apr 19, 2010 11:24:07 GMT -5
I'll NEVER give up fighting for justice for inmates. Your friends should have not been subjected to the brutality of the guards. Abusing power like that is a disgrace to the justice system, and they should be prosecuted for their actions. However, to make things interesting, I am going to prose a question from your statement quoted: Do those in prison who have wronged others and are reaping the consequences of the justice system deserve justice themselves when they are wronged by a system they put themselves into (whether it be by guard violence or inmate-on-inmate violence)? And if there is a formal justice system set in place, is there really justice?
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Prison
Apr 19, 2010 11:39:37 GMT -5
Post by Greylek on Apr 19, 2010 11:39:37 GMT -5
I'll NEVER give up fighting for justice for inmates. Your friends should have not been subjected to the brutality of the guards. Abusing power like that is a disgrace to the justice system, and they should be prosecuted for their actions. However, to make things interesting, I am going to prose a question from your statement quoted: Do those in prison who have wronged others and are reaping the consequences of the justice system deserve justice themselves when they are wronged by a system they put themselves into (whether it be by guard violence or inmate-on-inmate violence)? And if there is a formal justice system set in place, is there really justice? I will also answer this question by saying yes. Only for the simple truth that we cannot blur the law to fit what we like and by what we like I mean murderers or other criminals not being seen as victims when by definition they are. If they are being abused, they are victims and the law needs to step in. Just as in Canada and the women's penitentiary that was shut down (most in part by the female inmates taken action) and the system being pretty bad. Now as for the justice aspect to your question, what happens? CO's get fired/charged? Inmates who murder other inmates get more time/sent to the SHU? Does it solve the problem? No, but then again, the justice system doesn't solve the crime problem that happens outside the prison walls either (in that it still continues).
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Novak
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Prison
Apr 19, 2010 11:48:45 GMT -5
Post by Novak on Apr 19, 2010 11:48:45 GMT -5
Now as for the justice aspect to your question, what happens? CO's get fired/charged? Inmates who murder other inmates get more time/sent to the SHU? Does it solve the problem? No, but then again, the justice system doesn't solve the crime problem that happens outside the prison walls either (in that it still continues). But is that really justice? I mean, at least in society when someone who does wrong they are placed out of society, and for the most part people are kept safe. Would you think it is fair if someone raped another person to just be "fired" from their job? The justice system is supposed to solve the problem for the individual person who committed the crime, that is why specific deterrence is so popular. A CO who rapes a person and gets fired is not justice.
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Prison
Apr 19, 2010 12:04:11 GMT -5
Post by Greylek on Apr 19, 2010 12:04:11 GMT -5
Now as for the justice aspect to your question, what happens? CO's get fired/charged? Inmates who murder other inmates get more time/sent to the SHU? Does it solve the problem? No, but then again, the justice system doesn't solve the crime problem that happens outside the prison walls either (in that it still continues). But is that really justice? I mean, at least in society when someone who does wrong they are placed out of society, and for the most part people are kept safe. Would you think it is fair if someone raped another person to just be "fired" from their job? The justice system is supposed to solve the problem for the individual person who committed the crime, that is why specific deterrence is so popular. A CO who rapes a person and gets fired is not justice. I guess you didn't see the slash and you know the part where he is also charged. Let me make it clear that it is not just being fired, but there are always other issues (for some job security and losing it can make them homicidal or resort to crime). Again not advocating just for a slap on the wrist--rape is a serious crime and further abuse of power shouldn't be taken lightly either. But again in life there are always power dynamics. CO v Prison. Boss v employee. Teacher v Student. Sometimes people don't even see justice. But my point is if we want justice then we have to stop labelling in a sense that this person is more of a victim than that person because of X or Y. If we have a general definition of what constitutes a victim than those who meet said definition fall into said category. And I bring this up because a raped prison whether by another inmate or CO, if they are not seen as a victim then how are they going to get justice?
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Prison
Apr 19, 2010 20:43:07 GMT -5
Post by sadie on Apr 19, 2010 20:43:07 GMT -5
Crime is crime. Wherever is occurs and whoever does it.....it should not be condoned. The problem with the prison system and the legal system is that they are completely overwhelmed, understaffed, and underpayed. If you don't have good pay......you can't keep good employees........you have employees that can be bought or paid to turn a blind eye.......or like in any profession.....are just not good people. So.....you have someone in power....that is a jerk......with people that they consider weaker.....they are going to prey on them.
I don't know what the answer is......no one wants to raise taxes for better prisons and all that goes with that......so what do you do? Too many repeat offenders........and our prisons are overflowing.......so what is the answer?
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Prison
Apr 20, 2010 11:44:47 GMT -5
Post by Greylek on Apr 20, 2010 11:44:47 GMT -5
Crime is crime. Wherever is occurs and whoever does it.....it should not be condoned. The problem with the prison system and the legal system is that they are completely overwhelmed, understaffed, and underpayed. If you don't have good pay......you can't keep good employees........you have employees that can be bought or paid to turn a blind eye.......or like in any profession.....are just not good people. So.....you have someone in power....that is a jerk......with people that they consider weaker.....they are going to prey on them. I don't know what the answer is......no one wants to raise taxes for better prisons and all that goes with that......so what do you do? Too many repeat offenders........and our prisons are overflowing.......so what is the answer? While I am against abuse in prison and crimes (doesn't matter by who) in the prison system, I still believe that prison should not be a home away from home. I do see that there are repeat offenders and that is in part due to the prison system itself (apparently a bad prison system does not rehabilitate therefore repeat offending) however I stand by that those who are going to be in prison for the span of their life shouldn't have access to some priviliges.
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Prison
Apr 20, 2010 15:01:21 GMT -5
Post by fretslider on Apr 20, 2010 15:01:21 GMT -5
I know from experience how unpopular my views on inmates' rights are but I'll go on fighting my corner because eventually the justice system WILL end up taking the morally right point of view. Prisoners - male and female - are routinely raped by both guards and inmates, routinely brutalised, and (in the US particularly) used as slave labour and guinea pigs for unsafe medical experiments for which the prison service gets kickbacks from the drug barons. Having seen two friends of mine so badly brutalised and raped that they tried to kill themselves, I'll NEVER give up fighting for justice for inmates. Even the WORST prisoner is still a human being and deserves to be treated with dignity and compassion. I don't care if that makes people think I'm some sort of wishy washy liberal or soft on crime. I don't even care if they think I'm a hypocrite because I also support the death penalty. Life is full of complex moral choices and, like Oscar Wilde said, 'the truth is rarely pure and never simple.' Which, or rather whose justice system are you referring to here, Lin?
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Prison
Apr 20, 2010 17:27:40 GMT -5
Post by Wonder Woman on Apr 20, 2010 17:27:40 GMT -5
Punish the CRIME. If it's a crime to rape someone (and it is) then, it doesn't ~ or shouldn't ~ matter if the bastaad being raped 'deserved' to be raped. It matters that the person raping the person 'deserving' of rape is a rapist and should be punished just as if the person who they raped was an 'innocent'.
When we endeavor to dissect each case individually (like some are want to do) we water down the CRIME, IMO. It's no more right to rape someone who has it coming than to rape someone who doesn't.
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Deleted
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Prison
Apr 20, 2010 17:31:55 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2010 17:31:55 GMT -5
Lynne, I am not sure that anyone deserves to be raped or abused no matter what they have done.
I take a rather unorthodox approach to crime and punishment - I would use prison sparingly and I oppose the death penalty and, in the majority of cases, life imprisonment.
Ultimately I believe that the majority of crimes on the statute books ought NOT to be there at all and that the majority of inmates should be released.
I also feel that we DO as a matter of simple reality HAVE to make distinctions between one perpetrator and another.
That is NOT (as is often dishonestly or at least mistakenly assumed) mean that we are assigning less value to the victim, but simply that we are recognising the facts that, in a world of individuals, ONLY the individual CAN be judged if justice is to prevail rather than simply the mob's delirious lust for vengeance at all costs.
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Deleted
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Prison
Apr 20, 2010 20:13:30 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2010 20:13:30 GMT -5
Crime is crime. Wherever is occurs and whoever does it.....it should not be condoned. The problem with the prison system and the legal system is that they are completely overwhelmed, understaffed, and underpayed. If you don't have good pay......you can't keep good employees........you have employees that can be bought or paid to turn a blind eye.......or like in any profession.....are just not good people. So.....you have someone in power....that is a jerk......with people that they consider weaker.....they are going to prey on them. I don't know what the answer is......no one wants to raise taxes for better prisons and all that goes with that......so what do you do? Too many repeat offenders........and our prisons are overflowing.......so what is the answer? While I am against abuse in prison and crimes (doesn't matter by who) in the prison system, I still believe that prison should not be a home away from home. I do see that there are repeat offenders and that is in part due to the prison system itself (apparently a bad prison system does not rehabilitate therefore repeat offending) however I stand by that those who are going to be in prison for the span of their life shouldn't have access to some priviliges. Rehab is up to the individual; kinda like the old adage "you can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink". Sometimes I think we put to much emphasis on the prison to be miracle makers and that is not going to happen. It's a complicated issue and one that needs to be deallt with from the input of inmates, co's, and prison staff.......they are the only ones who truly understand the system and how to fix it. As I have been told, people tend to find a comfort zone no matter where they are or what circumstances they are under. How do you propose to deal with juveniles who have found the hall is far better than home or foster care? These kids would rather be incarcerated than go home or back into foster care. We need for parole officers to stop being such weenies and work with the parolees instead of violating for minor offenses such as crossing a county line or a traffic violation. I believe in prison, have no doubts there, but I don't know if at this point we will ever be able to overhaul the system as it has grown to large and to many people depend on the prison industrial complex to make their living off of.
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Prison
Apr 20, 2010 20:31:40 GMT -5
Post by Wonder Woman on Apr 20, 2010 20:31:40 GMT -5
Lynne, I am not sure that anyone deserves to be raped or abused no matter what they have done. That's why I put 'deserves' in quotes... I think it's arguable that someone who raped and slaughtered children deserve to be raped and abused. Not suggesting, though that I believe we've a right to either dole the treatment, nor to condone it. I also oppose the death penalty for (largely) the same reasons I oppose torturing inmates. But, I do believe there are many cases where life imprisonment is our only defense from being re-victimized. But, I do agree with you that for many crimes, imprisonment isn't the answer. Would love for you to expound on that... what crimes are we talking? I disagree. Same crime, same punishment, across the board, no exceptions. BUT (and that's a big but) laws would have to be revised so that, for example, kids who choose to show their boobies on their phones aren't forever labeled sex offenders. Well, I don't consider myself a vengeful person, but I consider that the law should be set in stone ~ AND far more precise than it is at present.
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Prison
Apr 21, 2010 10:44:41 GMT -5
Post by biglin on Apr 21, 2010 10:44:41 GMT -5
I have a feeling Mike will post her more often than I do. I'll answer the question about my friends.
They were both in their early twenties and were - well, to be honest, they were a husband and wife team who were running prostitutes. They were friends of mine and both gypsies like me. They made the mistake of taking on a couple of partners, a boyfriend and girlfriend. As soon as THEY got involved the girls working for them started to complain about being raped, abused and stuff like that.
The two offenders - the man and his girlfriend - lied through their teeth and turned Queen's Evidence in return for immunity. My two mates were grassed up and lied about and sentenced to prison where they both got royally abused and tried to kill themselves.
I'm afraid I doled out some citizens' justice of my own and put both of them in hospital. The girl was one of the leading lights in the local BNP so it was a double whammy of satisfaction!
Did I do the morally wrong thing? Maybe. I was 20 at the time and I don't think I'd do it now that I'm 32. I've mellowed a lot over the years.
There's actually no such THING as 'the same crime.' It's TOTALLY different if someone murders a paedophile who's been abusing their kid to if they are a serial killer who gets their jollies off on wasting people.
They are NOT the same crime - one of them is murder and the other is not - and it's just WRONG to treat them as if they WERE.
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Prison
Apr 21, 2010 11:36:12 GMT -5
Post by Wonder Woman on Apr 21, 2010 11:36:12 GMT -5
There's actually no such THING as 'the same crime.' It's TOTALLY different if someone murders a paedophile who's been abusing their kid to if they are a serial killer who gets their jollies off on wasting people. They are NOT the same crime - one of them is murder and the other is not - and it's just WRONG to treat them as if they WERE. IMO, if and when it's against the law to murder, then it's against the law to murder anyone for any reason. If citizens want to be allowed to murder for (specific) reasons, they should lobby for changes to the law. It is only in being absolute in our laws (and the punishments of crime) that citizens will take the law seriously.
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