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Post by trubble on Jun 13, 2011 7:03:47 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity, what would be the point of executing her? trubble....I'll answer definitively, if you definitively answer.. the answer ;D If she is convicted, of course, she could be executed...Florida knows how to do this. or she could live a long life, both in prison and out of prison. Remember, odds are, at her young age....no matter what the non-dp sentence she recieves.....she will be released in the public again. We do not execute all murderers.....only the worst of the worst. We do this to protect innocents from totally demented, psychotic killers with no conscience. How in the world could anyone who has heard that she is accused of taping the mouth of her child, leading her out into the woods, and killing her....doubt for a moment what she would do to a child, or any person who "inconvenienced" her in the future? So the point of execution in her case is to protect the rest of us. And nothing else but execution will do that. And jumbo's point is that a murder should beget a murder, and that anything else is immoral. I'm not convinced by either reasoning, I must admit.
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Post by biglin on Jun 13, 2011 7:12:19 GMT -5
trubble....I'll answer definitively, if you definitively answer.. the answer ;D If she is convicted, of course, she could be executed...Florida knows how to do this. or she could live a long life, both in prison and out of prison. Remember, odds are, at her young age....no matter what the non-dp sentence she recieves.....she will be released in the public again. We do not execute all murderers.....only the worst of the worst. We do this to protect innocents from totally demented, psychotic killers with no conscience. How in the world could anyone who has heard that she is accused of taping the mouth of her child, leading her out into the woods, and killing her....doubt for a moment what she would do to a child, or any person who "inconvenienced" her in the future? So the point of execution in her case is to protect the rest of us. And nothing else but execution will do that. And jumbo's point is that a murder should beget a murder, and that anything else is immoral. I'm not convinced by either reasoning, I must admit. Thatt's not why I support the death penalty. My attiotude is that it's a proportionate punishment for murder. If you murder someone you shouuld be executed for it. I've always thought my fellow pros grossly overuse the deterrence argument jhus as antis overuse the innocence claim. To me, it's a simple matter. If you murder someone you should forfeit your own life for the crime you've committed. That, to me, is the fundamental moral basis of capital punishment.
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Post by trubble on Jun 13, 2011 7:14:36 GMT -5
That's Jumbo's argument too.
Are there no second chances or no extenuating circumstances? No rehabilitation or atonement?
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Post by sadie on Jun 13, 2011 8:28:30 GMT -5
Extenuating circumstances would of course be brought up during the trial.....but rehabilitation or atonement for murder............while I believe the victim's family could forgive the act, eventually, what would be atonement for them for the loss of their loved one?
I think that is part of the struggle......
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Post by trubble on Jun 13, 2011 10:22:07 GMT -5
Maybe atonement isn't the right word. I was thinking of repentance, remorse and understanding (eventually) on her part, and forgiveness then from the family. And a process that would be more helpful to everyone concerned than the process of execution.
You talk about the victim's family, but it is also the murderer's family in this case, which is why I am wondering about the value of the Death Penalty in her case.
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Post by beth on Jun 13, 2011 10:49:25 GMT -5
Must be more than horrible for the parents and brother. Can't even imagine how they manage to keep going. Perhaps at some point, one becomes numb from being plummeted over and over again.
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Post by iamjumbo on Jun 13, 2011 12:47:42 GMT -5
trubble....I'll answer definitively, if you definitively answer.. the answer ;D If she is convicted, of course, she could be executed...Florida knows how to do this. or she could live a long life, both in prison and out of prison. Remember, odds are, at her young age....no matter what the non-dp sentence she recieves.....she will be released in the public again. We do not execute all murderers.....only the worst of the worst. We do this to protect innocents from totally demented, psychotic killers with no conscience. How in the world could anyone who has heard that she is accused of taping the mouth of her child, leading her out into the woods, and killing her....doubt for a moment what she would do to a child, or any person who "inconvenienced" her in the future? So the point of execution in her case is to protect the rest of us. And nothing else but execution will do that. And jumbo's point is that a murder should beget a murder, and that anything else is immoral. I'm not convinced by either reasoning, I must admit. of course, you're wrong on both counts. while an execution will protect the real people, it is the ONLY morally proper PUNISHMENT for murder. of course, if you don't care anything about human rights, you don't want the murderer properly punished since his/her life is of more value than the victims. that is pretty sad. obviously, i never said anything even remotely resembling a murder should beget a murder. if i were still doing it, i would want whatever you're smoking. that's a really wild hallucination that you have there
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Post by iamjumbo on Jun 13, 2011 12:53:05 GMT -5
That's Jumbo's argument too. Are there no second chances or no extenuating circumstances? No rehabilitation or atonement? THAT is where you lose the entire argument. it is insane to even ask such a ridiculous question. why do you think that a murderer's life is more important than a victim? that is EXACTLY what you're saying when you come off with that kind of garbage. NO, there is no atonement on this earth for murder. exactly how do you propose that the victim be rehabilitated back to life? until you can restore life to the victim, it is asinine to even consider a second chance for a murderer. it is ridiculous on its face there is never, ever, a time when committing a murder is making a mistake.
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Post by iamjumbo on Jun 13, 2011 12:57:06 GMT -5
Maybe atonement isn't the right word. I was thinking of repentance, remorse and understanding (eventually) on her part, and forgiveness then from the family. And a process that would be more helpful to everyone concerned than the process of execution. You talk about the victim's family, but it is also the murderer's family in this case, which is why I am wondering about the value of the Death Penalty in her case. the murderer's family is NEVER relevant. if they are crazy enough to still claim the piece of shyt as family, they'd damn sure better comprehend the FACT that it is the murderer, and the murderer alone, who has chosen to cause any pain that they feel. once again, tell me how remorse or all the understanding in the world is going to restore the victim's life. NOTHING else matters
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Post by iamjumbo on Jun 13, 2011 12:59:12 GMT -5
Must be more than horrible for the parents and brother. Can't even imagine how they manage to keep going. Perhaps at some point, one becomes numb from being plummeted over and over again. if they were intelligent, they would forget that she is related to them in any way, and treat her as such, and just not have a thing to do with her in any way
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Post by trubble on Jun 13, 2011 14:04:31 GMT -5
Maybe atonement isn't the right word. I was thinking of repentance, remorse and understanding (eventually) on her part, and forgiveness then from the family. And a process that would be more helpful to everyone concerned than the process of execution. You talk about the victim's family, but it is also the murderer's family in this case, which is why I am wondering about the value of the Death Penalty in her case. the murderer's family is NEVER relevant. if they are crazy enough to still claim the piece of shyt as family, they'd damn sure better comprehend the FACT that it is the murderer, and the murderer alone, who has chosen to cause any pain that they feel. once again, tell me how remorse or all the understanding in the world is going to restore the victim's life. NOTHING else matters Don't be daft -- the murderer and the murdered are both in the same family unit. The parents/grandparents will have to make their way through this in their own sweet way, god love them, but they are relevant - of course they are! All I'm wondering is whether the Death Penalty for the daughter is going to be the best result for the victim's family considering the daughter is..er... the daughter! Maybe the DP will be more stressful to the victim's family than Life. Maybe?
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Post by trubble on Jun 13, 2011 14:11:59 GMT -5
That's Jumbo's argument too. Are there no second chances or no extenuating circumstances? No rehabilitation or atonement? THAT is where you lose the entire argument. it is insane to even ask such a ridiculous question. why do you think that a murderer's life is more important than a victim? that is EXACTLY what you're saying when you come off with that kind of garbage. NO, there is no atonement on this earth for murder. exactly how do you propose that the victim be rehabilitated back to life? until you can restore life to the victim, it is asinine to even consider a second chance for a murderer. it is ridiculous on its face there is never, ever, a time when committing a murder is making a mistake. The Death Penalty does none of this restoration either. It may offer society a feeling of justice but perhaps no more so than Life (meaning life). Or it may offer the victim's family some sense of revenge/vengeance/closure -- but in this case, I suggest that's questionable at least. But it does nothing for the victim. What the Death Penalty does is try to control society by trying to remove the desire for vigilante behaviour and trying to offer a sense of payback. If it doesn't actually offer the payback to the victim's family, maybe it's not the right course of action. In. This. Case.
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Post by beth on Jun 13, 2011 14:20:13 GMT -5
Must be more than horrible for the parents and brother. Can't even imagine how they manage to keep going. Perhaps at some point, one becomes numb from being plummeted over and over again. if they were intelligent, they would forget that she is related to them in any way, and treat her as such, and just not have a thing to do with her in any way I don't think it's a question of intelligence, Jim. They've lost so much, and there could very well be extenuating factors they know and the public does not. A parent's child is their child ... always. The emotional ties may be battered and frayed, but the bond is always there. I have to add ... you don't KNOW how you'd feel in a similar situation .. you may be dead sure you do, but not without walking in their shoes.
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Post by iamjumbo on Jun 13, 2011 14:26:39 GMT -5
the murderer's family is NEVER relevant. if they are crazy enough to still claim the piece of shyt as family, they'd damn sure better comprehend the FACT that it is the murderer, and the murderer alone, who has chosen to cause any pain that they feel. once again, tell me how remorse or all the understanding in the world is going to restore the victim's life. NOTHING else matters Don't be daft -- the murderer and the murdered are both in the same family unit. The parents/grandparents will have to make their way through this in their own sweet way, god love them, but they are relevant - of course they are! All I'm wondering is whether the Death Penalty for the daughter is going to be the best result for the victim's family considering the daughter is..er... the daughter! Maybe the DP will be more stressful to the victim's family than Life. Maybe? it very well could, BUT, only if THEY choose for it to. as i've said, after her murdering their granddaughter, and then trying to lay the blame at their feet, by accusing her father of molesting her no less, is more than a sufficient reason for totally getting rid of her, completely out of their lives, and forget that they ever had such a worthless kid. nonetheless, how her execution, or the execution of ANY murderer, affects the murderer's family is not anything that has any business even being considered. how it affects them is totally up to them, no one else has an iota of responsibility for it. the murderer, and the murderer alone, made the conscious choice to inflict that pain on the family, if, they choose to feel any pain
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Post by iamjumbo on Jun 13, 2011 14:32:50 GMT -5
THAT is where you lose the entire argument. it is insane to even ask such a ridiculous question. why do you think that a murderer's life is more important than a victim? that is EXACTLY what you're saying when you come off with that kind of garbage. NO, there is no atonement on this earth for murder. exactly how do you propose that the victim be rehabilitated back to life? until you can restore life to the victim, it is asinine to even consider a second chance for a murderer. it is ridiculous on its face there is never, ever, a time when committing a murder is making a mistake. The Death Penalty does none of this restoration either. It may offer society a feeling of justice but perhaps no more so than Life (meaning life). Or it may offer the victim's family some sense of revenge/vengeance/closure -- but in this case, I suggest that's questionable at least. But it does nothing for the victim. What the Death Penalty does is try to control society by trying to remove the desire for vigilante behaviour and trying to offer a sense of payback. If it doesn't actually offer the payback to the victim's family, maybe it's not the right course of action. In. This. Case. while murder is certainly a crime against the victim's family, the important thing is that it is a crime against society as a whole. a victim's family has no right to ask that the death penalty not be imposed. if they are insane enough to forgive the murderer, that is on them. as i've pointed out, there is NO forgiveness for murder in this life. no, the death penalty has nothing to do with assuaging the feelings of anyone. it is about nothing but justice. life is sacrosanct. of course, those who oppose the death penalty do not believe that, but, it does happen to be the reality. when an individual makes the conscious choice to deprive someone of their life, he is wilfully, and consciously CHOOSING, of his own accord, to forfeit his right to life. it is just that simple.
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