ladylinda
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Post by ladylinda on May 23, 2014 10:01:38 GMT -5
Your point is a good one Beth. I have a lot of acquaintances and friends who are Theists and periodically we'll talk about these same things. I know that it is very difficult for most of them to accept that I really am an Atheist. Its as if, if they accept the reality of my being an Atheist, then somehow it weakens their Theist belief. Many of them cannot accept the idea that I can discuss ethics and morals with them and not be some form of a Theist, so comes the unfounded idea that an Atheist mused believe in Atheism as if it were a Theist belief. The one's who have little problem with my being an Atheist are in the clergy with extensive education in theology. I don't think you have to be a theist to have morals or such and I regularly discuss ideas of all kinds with my atheist friends. We don't agree but neither I nor they think that you have to believe in a God to discuss these things. But like I said in all but name atheism IS a belief system. It IS an attitude - a strong claim - that there IS no God. Now I'm happy for atheists to think that. But it's an opinion about the world just as theism is. If you prefer the word opinion to belief that's fine by me. But in all practical senses they're the same thing.
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ladylinda
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Post by ladylinda on May 23, 2014 10:03:39 GMT -5
As for the question in your last sentence, I've never seen you condemn the IRA - in fact you DEFENDED them Bollocks. Perhaps you'd like to show me the threads where Fret HAS condemned the IRA. If I could be bothered to go through ancient posts I could produce three or four where he's defended them. So maybe you should check your facts before coming out with reflex rejection of a statement simply because I'm the one who made it.
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ladylinda
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Post by ladylinda on May 23, 2014 10:06:33 GMT -5
Well, current events simply show SOME terrorists calling themselves Muslims are behaving badly. cAs for the question in your last sentence, I've never seen you condemn the IRA - in fact you DEFENDED them - or the Tamil Tigers, ETA, the Shining Path, Breivik, McVeigh, to pick just a few examples at random. I've consistently condemned ALL terrorist actions and groups. I'm totally supportive of Herri Batusuna's attempt to create an independent Basque homeland but I've always condemned ETA's violence; I'm totally support of Ulster Unionism but I've always condemned the UDA; and so on. """As for the question in your last sentence, I've never seen you condemn the IRA - in fact you DEFENDED them - or the Tamil Tigers, ETA, the Shining Path, Breivik, McVeigh, to pick just a few examples at random.""""" when was that then ?I have never seen or been aware that either Fret ot Tempus supported or condoned mas murdering killers """"Well, current events simply show SOME terrorists calling themselves Muslims are behaving badly."""" ..unbelievable...yay try current events stretching back over centuries doing the same thing over and over and over...using exactly the same rehetoric/mantra/excuses/ """" I've never seen you condemn the IRA - in fact you DEFENDED them - or the Tamil Tigers, ETA, the Shining Path, Breivik, McVeigh, to pick just a few examples at random.""""""mindbendingly inaccurate[and what do these groups have to do with Carey and the right to convert from islam] I never said Tempus; I said Fret. If I could be bothered I could dig out about three or four posts from way back when he did defend the IRA. Nor do I remember him condemning the other terrorists I've mentioned. And if you're talking about centuries then the Christians easily outweigh the Muslims in terms of mass murder. The Nazis and Communists outweigh everyone.
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Tempus Fugit
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Post by Tempus Fugit on May 23, 2014 10:41:03 GMT -5
You didn't say anyone and, whilst your post came after one of FS's, its content and context implied it was in response to one of mine.
I have never condoned or supported the IRA or any other illegal murderous organisation so, as I said, your assertion as implied is bollocks.
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Post by beth on May 23, 2014 10:47:23 GMT -5
All "opinions" are not necessarily beliefs. It is my opinion Jehovah's Witnesses are annoying and unpopular ... but that has no relation to any kind of belief system ... just experience. A belief is a conviction ... even more in many cases. It's something much different than an opinion.
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Post by beth on May 23, 2014 10:52:31 GMT -5
"""As for the question in your last sentence, I've never seen you condemn the IRA - in fact you DEFENDED them - or the Tamil Tigers, ETA, the Shining Path, Breivik, McVeigh, to pick just a few examples at random.""""" when was that then ?I have never seen or been aware that either Fret ot Tempus supported or condoned mas murdering killers """"Well, current events simply show SOME terrorists calling themselves Muslims are behaving badly."""" ..unbelievable...yay try current events stretching back over centuries doing the same thing over and over and over...using exactly the same rehetoric/mantra/excuses/ """" I've never seen you condemn the IRA - in fact you DEFENDED them - or the Tamil Tigers, ETA, the Shining Path, Breivik, McVeigh, to pick just a few examples at random.""""""mindbendingly inaccurate[and what do these groups have to do with Carey and the right to convert from islam] I never said Tempus; I said Fret. If I could be bothered I could dig out about three or four posts from way back when he did defend the IRA. Nor do I remember him condemning the other terrorists I've mentioned. And if you're talking about centuries then the Christians easily outweigh the Muslims in terms of mass murder. The Nazis and Communists outweigh everyone. Lin, it's never been an option to pick and choose who or how many can reply to posts in threads on open board. That is open to everyone. The only person I've ever seen try to be selective about recognizing discussion replies was GG and that isn't a very good example to live by. IOW, anyone here is welcome to respond to any posts here. If you want to try to hold a private conversation ... well .. that's what PMs are for.
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Post by fretslider on May 23, 2014 12:02:23 GMT -5
"""As for the question in your last sentence, I've never seen you condemn the IRA - in fact you DEFENDED them - or the Tamil Tigers, ETA, the Shining Path, Breivik, McVeigh, to pick just a few examples at random.""""" when was that then ?I have never seen or been aware that either Fret ot Tempus supported or condoned mas murdering killers """"Well, current events simply show SOME terrorists calling themselves Muslims are behaving badly."""" ..unbelievable...yay try current events stretching back over centuries doing the same thing over and over and over...using exactly the same rehetoric/mantra/excuses/ """" I've never seen you condemn the IRA - in fact you DEFENDED them - or the Tamil Tigers, ETA, the Shining Path, Breivik, McVeigh, to pick just a few examples at random.""""""mindbendingly inaccurate[and what do these groups have to do with Carey and the right to convert from islam] I never said Tempus; I said Fret. If I could be bothered I could dig out about three or four posts from way back when he did defend the IRA. Nor do I remember him condemning the other terrorists I've mentioned. And if you're talking about centuries then the Christians easily outweigh the Muslims in terms of mass murder. The Nazis and Communists outweigh everyone. If I could be bothered I could dig out about three or four posts from way back when he did defend the IRA.
Nor do I remember him condemning the other terrorists I've mentioned.In other words, when I told you that the violence would not stop until it was given back, I was right. The IRA was/is a political entity fighting over the 6 counties, this has nothing to do with an insane religious ideology that pervades the globe with it's hatred and terror. Even the Chinese are getting a taste of it. As for Breivik... We all have similar feelings about what the political class has done to Europe.
We don't all go out and massacre people. This guy was/is unhingedgatesofbabylon.com/thread/7652/breiviks-labour-youth-victims?page=1I described the man as a lunatic, what else can he be?gatesofbabylon.com/thread/3802/oslo-bombing?page=2McVeigh? Another nutter. Shining path? Lol, you are funny
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Post by men an tol on May 23, 2014 15:54:42 GMT -5
Lady Linda, referring to reply #60, if you wish to see Atheism as some type of belief then please do so. That nearly all Atheists and identified Atheist groups disagree should not dissuade a Theist from defining for Atheists their (that is the Atheists) approach to the world, we're use to it.
We live in a community sea of many types of Theists, Atheists understand that situation. As a very small minority Atheists may have some quite vocal segments but in reality we understand that Theists must try to define our (Atheists) world for us. We are use to Theists trying to force us into a mold that we do not fit within.
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josephdphillips
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Post by josephdphillips on May 23, 2014 21:32:52 GMT -5
It IS an attitude - a strong claim - that there IS no God. Actually that is not the claim. It's the theists making a claim, to which atheists cannot assent without evidence. If there is no evidence for "god," there is no point in purporting its existence.
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Post by mouse on May 24, 2014 2:08:08 GMT -5
how does one belive in atheism.... ? an atheist does not belive in the existence God.....simples .......that doesn't transform into an alternate beliefe system its getting like swimming in syrup Well, surely any kind of attitude or opinion is some kind of belief about something? And if you believe there isn't a God that's as much a belief as thinking there is. But since we seem to be getting hung up on the words 'belief' and belief systems' let's try and redefine what I'm saying. Atheists have an opinion that God doesn't exist. It's not a fact that God doesn't exist anymore than it's a fact He does. In my opinion there is a God; in the opinion of atheists there isn't a God. So on both sides we're talking about opinions. If you prefer me to use the word opinion rather than belief I'm easy. I don't think it makes any practical difference because we're still talking about ideas rather than facts and I can't really see any difference between calling the idea there isn't a God a belief and calling it an opinion. But since you atheists seem so terrified of admitting that your opinion IS a belief I'll use opinion instead. as I am NOT an atheist.... your talking to the wrong poster ..plus am not terrified of admitting to any opinion i may or may not have.. but fail to see how how having NO Faith turns into a beliefe system... I am an agnostic...I simply do not know if god or a god exists...am drawn to the nonexistence stance...but i cannot prove either way i was brought up in a practising Christian household of the best type....[my theology mentor was one of the leading theologists of his day]a friend of my family he taught me to question and explore the questions of faith/beliefe/opinion/fact/fiction and most of all interpretations which naturally i did from being quite a young person i also had the privilege of seeing Christians leading Christian lives with Christian values...i also had the privilege is seeing non believers leading lives with ethical values and moral stances etc so my stance of agnosticism comes with a deal of thought and from an informed background,,and i feel my mentor would approve my journey to my stance if not my conclussions....
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Post by mouse on May 24, 2014 2:33:03 GMT -5
no no no"""""" Well, surely any kind of attitude or opinion is some kind of belief about something?""""" two different words with two totally different meanings attitudes and opinions are not now and never will be beliefe and belief will never be faith """"""And if you're talking about centuries then the Christians easily outweigh the Muslims in terms of mass murder. The Nazis and Communists outweigh everyone.""""""" yes i am talking centuries in the context of historical patterns of behaviour of the subject under discussion...how ever as its not a competition Christianity/naziscommunists have no relevance into the discussion however exactly where are the figures to prove your assertion? ?
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ladylinda
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Post by ladylinda on May 24, 2014 10:54:42 GMT -5
I never said Tempus; I said Fret. If I could be bothered I could dig out about three or four posts from way back when he did defend the IRA. Nor do I remember him condemning the other terrorists I've mentioned. And if you're talking about centuries then the Christians easily outweigh the Muslims in terms of mass murder. The Nazis and Communists outweigh everyone. Lin, it's never been an option to pick and choose who or how many can reply to posts in threads on open board. That is open to everyone. The only person I've ever seen try to be selective about recognizing discussion replies was GG and that isn't a very good example to live by. IOW, anyone here is welcome to respond to any posts here. If you want to try to hold a private conversation ... well .. that's what PMs are for. It wasn't a question of picking and choosing; it's that Tempus' reply made it obvious he thought I was talking about him when I wasn't. That's all
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ladylinda
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Post by ladylinda on May 24, 2014 10:57:31 GMT -5
It IS an attitude - a strong claim - that there IS no God. Actually that is not the claim. It's the theists making a claim, to which atheists cannot assent without evidence. If there is no evidence for "god," there is no point in purporting its existence. No, Joe, the atheists are making the claim that there is no God just as the theists are claiming that there is. So both sides are making claims and opinions and there's no difference in that way. And of course I'd argue that there was evidence in favour of God. I just don't think it's certain; probable maybe but not certain. And equally atheists can't be certain that there is no God. So both sides are expressing opinions, beliefs, acts of faith, whatever you want to call them. To paraphrase Gertrude Stein, an opinion is an opinion is an opinion!
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ladylinda
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Post by ladylinda on May 24, 2014 11:00:22 GMT -5
Well, surely any kind of attitude or opinion is some kind of belief about something? And if you believe there isn't a God that's as much a belief as thinking there is. But since we seem to be getting hung up on the words 'belief' and belief systems' let's try and redefine what I'm saying. Atheists have an opinion that God doesn't exist. It's not a fact that God doesn't exist anymore than it's a fact He does. In my opinion there is a God; in the opinion of atheists there isn't a God. So on both sides we're talking about opinions. If you prefer me to use the word opinion rather than belief I'm easy. I don't think it makes any practical difference because we're still talking about ideas rather than facts and I can't really see any difference between calling the idea there isn't a God a belief and calling it an opinion. But since you atheists seem so terrified of admitting that your opinion IS a belief I'll use opinion instead. as I am NOT an atheist.... your talking to the wrong poster ..plus am not terrified of admitting to any opinion i may or may not have.. but fail to see how how having NO Faith turns into a beliefe system... I am an agnostic...I simply do not know if god or a god exists...am drawn to the nonexistence stance...but i cannot prove either way i was brought up in a practising Christian household of the best type....[my theology mentor was one of the leading theologists of his day]a friend of my family he taught me to question and explore the questions of faith/beliefe/opinion/fact/fiction and most of all interpretations which naturally i did from being quite a young person i also had the privilege of seeing Christians leading Christian lives with Christian values...i also had the privilege is seeing non believers leading lives with ethical values and moral stances etc so my stance of agnosticism comes with a deal of thought and from an informed background,,and i feel my mentor would approve my journey to my stance if not my conclussions.... Well, you're an agnostic; that's fine - I genuinely thought you were an atheist. But it's pretty obvious that having ANY kind of opinion IS an opinion - a belief, whatever you want to call it. Saying 'there is no God' is just as much an opinion as saying 'there is a God.' Saying 'I'm not sure' is also an opinion but of course it's where you reserve your judgement. And I don't have any problem with people not having religious beliefs. I just have problems with people who can't admit that their opinions are also beliefs.
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ladylinda
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Post by ladylinda on May 24, 2014 11:04:13 GMT -5
no no no"""""" Well, surely any kind of attitude or opinion is some kind of belief about something?""""" two different words with two totally different meanings attitudes and opinions are not now and never will be beliefe and belief will never be faith """"""And if you're talking about centuries then the Christians easily outweigh the Muslims in terms of mass murder. The Nazis and Communists outweigh everyone.""""""" yes i am talking centuries in the context of historical patterns of behaviour of the subject under discussion...how ever as its not a competition Christianity/naziscommunists have no relevance into the discussion however exactly where are the figures to prove your assertion? ? Well, the figures on the Nazis and Communists are pretty well known but if you really want I'll dig them out for you. They're WAY beyond the numbers down to Muslims. And I'll dig out the figures for Christians too but once again they're WAY higher than the figures for Muslims. And it IS relevant to say that when someone makes a claim about a particular group of people and in particular accuses them of being responsible for more murders than anyone else anyone who takes a different view has the right to present facts that show that the claim they've made is wrong - as it IS wrong. And opinion just IS a belief. They're the same thing. How can you have an opinion about anything if you don't also believe it?
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