ladylinda
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Post by ladylinda on May 22, 2014 7:23:53 GMT -5
Well, current events simply show SOME terrorists calling themselves Muslims are behaving badly.
As for the question in your last sentence, I've never seen you condemn the IRA - in fact you DEFENDED them - or the Tamil Tigers, ETA, the Shining Path, Breivik, McVeigh, to pick just a few examples at random.
I've consistently condemned ALL terrorist actions and groups. I'm totally supportive of Herri Batusuna's attempt to create an independent Basque homeland but I've always condemned ETA's violence; I'm totally support of Ulster Unionism but I've always condemned the UDA; and so on.
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ladylinda
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Post by ladylinda on May 22, 2014 7:25:28 GMT -5
No, Fret, it's a simple FACT that you DO believe in atheism.
Why are you so reluctant to admit it?
Did you even bother to read the article I posted FROM an atheist who freely ADMITTED that atheism IS a belief system and that he can't understand WHY atheists don't just ADMIT that?
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Tempus Fugit
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Post by Tempus Fugit on May 22, 2014 7:36:03 GMT -5
As for the question in your last sentence, I've never seen you condemn the IRA - in fact you DEFENDED them Bollocks.
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Post by mouse on May 22, 2014 9:33:07 GMT -5
Well, current events simply show SOME terrorists calling themselves Muslims are behaving badly. cAs for the question in your last sentence, I've never seen you condemn the IRA - in fact you DEFENDED them - or the Tamil Tigers, ETA, the Shining Path, Breivik, McVeigh, to pick just a few examples at random. I've consistently condemned ALL terrorist actions and groups. I'm totally supportive of Herri Batusuna's attempt to create an independent Basque homeland but I've always condemned ETA's violence; I'm totally support of Ulster Unionism but I've always condemned the UDA; and so on. """As for the question in your last sentence, I've never seen you condemn the IRA - in fact you DEFENDED them - or the Tamil Tigers, ETA, the Shining Path, Breivik, McVeigh, to pick just a few examples at random.""""" when was that then ?I have never seen or been aware that either Fret ot Tempus supported or condoned mas murdering killers """"Well, current events simply show SOME terrorists calling themselves Muslims are behaving badly."""" ..unbelievable...yay try current events stretching back over centuries doing the same thing over and over and over...using exactly the same rehetoric/mantra/excuses/ """" I've never seen you condemn the IRA - in fact you DEFENDED them - or the Tamil Tigers, ETA, the Shining Path, Breivik, McVeigh, to pick just a few examples at random.""""""mindbendingly inaccurate[and what do these groups have to do with Carey and the right to convert from islam]
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Post by mouse on May 22, 2014 9:40:32 GMT -5
No, Fret, it's a simple FACT that you DO believe in atheism. Why are you so reluctant to admit it? Did you even bother to read the article I posted FROM an atheist who freely ADMITTED that atheism IS a belief system and that he can't understand WHY atheists don't just ADMIT that? how does one belive in atheism.... ? an atheist does not belive in the existence God.....simples .......that doesn't transform into an alternate beliefe system its getting like swimming in syrup
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Post by men an tol on May 22, 2014 10:30:10 GMT -5
Lady Linda, the writings of the young man stating that Atheism 'is' a belief is interesting and in fact his blog (where this article came from) had many of his opinions about a lot of subjects. However, what this proves is that you can find someone who has (will) offered a point of view about anything. It is certainly his opinion but it represents no definable segment of Atheistic communit. Certainly it doesn't offer the view point of Humanistic Atheism, or Existentialist Atheism, or Determinist Atheism. It is his singular point of view and he is welcome to it.
You're implying that his point of view has some significant standing, it doesn't. It is merely the point of view of a single person.
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Post by men an tol on May 22, 2014 12:13:07 GMT -5
What is
Surely, a man who is understanding life does not want beliefs. A man who loves, has no beliefs he loves. It is the man who is consumed by the intellect who has beliefs, because intellect is always seeking security, protection; it is always avoiding danger, and therefore it builds ideas, beliefs, ideals, behind which it can take shelter. What would happen if you dealt with violence directly, now? You would be a danger to society; and because the mind foresees the danger, it says "I will achieve the ideal of nonviolence ten years later which is such a fictitious, false process... ; To understand what is, is more important than to create and follow ideals because ideals are false, and what is is the real. To understand what is requires an enormous capacity, a swift and unprejudiced mind. It is because we dont want to face and understand what is that we invent the many ways of escape and give them lovely names as the ideal, the belief, God. Surely, it is only when I see the false as the false that my mind is capable of perceiving what is true. A mind that is confused in the false, can never find the truth. Therefore, I must understand what is false in my relationships, in my ideas, in the things about me because to perceive the truth requires the understanding of the false. Without removing the causes of ignorance, there cannot be enlightenment; and to seek enlightenment when the mind is unenlightened is utterly empty, meaningless. Therefore, I must begin to see the false in my relationships with ideas, with people, with things. When the mind sees that which is false, then that which is true comes into being and then there is ecstasy, there is happiness. - Krishnamurti, J. Krishnamurti, The Book of Life
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Tempus Fugit
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Post by Tempus Fugit on May 22, 2014 14:20:54 GMT -5
But that's just his (or her) opinion.
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Post by men an tol on May 22, 2014 16:35:58 GMT -5
Agitated by belief
So, your religion, your belief in God, is an escape from actuality, and therefore it is no religion at all. The rich man who accumulates money through cruelty, through dishonesty, through cunning exploitation believes in God; and you also believe in God, you also are cunning, cruel, suspicious, envious. Is God to be found through dishonesty, through deceit, through cunning tricks of the mind? Because you collect all the sacred books and the various symbols of God, does that indicate that you are a religious person? So, religion is not escape from the fact; religion is the understanding of the fact of what you are in your everyday relationships; religion is the manner of your speech, the way you talk, the way you address your servants, the way you treat your wife, your children, and neighbors. As long as you do not understand your relationship with your neighbor, with society, with your wife and children, there must be confusion; and whatever it does, the mind that is confused will only create more confusion, more problems and conflict. A mind that escapes from the actual, from the facts of relationship, shall never find God; a mind that is agitated by belief shall not know truth. But the mind that understands its relationship with property, with people, with ideas, the mind which no longer struggles with the problems which relationship creates, and for which the solution is not withdrawal but the understanding of love such a mind alone can understand reality. - Krishnamurti, J. Krishnamurti, The Book of Life
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Post by beth on May 22, 2014 17:09:17 GMT -5
Lady Linda, the writings of the young man stating that Atheism 'is' a belief is interesting and in fact his blog (where this article came from) had many of his opinions about a lot of subjects. However, what this proves is that you can find someone who has (will) offered a point of view about anything. It is certainly his opinion but it represents no definable segment of Atheistic communit. Certainly it doesn't offer the view point of Humanistic Atheism, or Existentialist Atheism, or Determinist Atheism. It is his singular point of view and he is welcome to it. You're implying that his point of view has some significant standing, it doesn't. It is merely the point of view of a single person. Agreed. There are different and varied opinions all over the web offering personal points of view about almost everything. Yet, they remain "opinion" ... food for thought but not fact .. not proof ... and not more important than Fret's opinion or mine or yours or Lin's. I don't think atheism is a belief system ... if anything, it's simply non-belief in the concept of religion as a whole. I don't necessarily agree but can accept and respect one's right to hold that opinion. Why, do you suppose, that is so hard for some to do?
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Post by men an tol on May 22, 2014 18:47:24 GMT -5
Your point is a good one Beth. I have a lot of acquaintances and friends who are Theists and periodically we'll talk about these same things. I know that it is very difficult for most of them to accept that I really am an Atheist. Its as if, if they accept the reality of my being an Atheist, then somehow it weakens their Theist belief. Many of them cannot accept the idea that I can discuss ethics and morals with them and not be some form of a Theist, so comes the unfounded idea that an Atheist mused believe in Atheism as if it were a Theist belief.
The one's who have little problem with my being an Atheist are in the clergy with extensive education in theology.
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Post by mouse on May 23, 2014 1:03:13 GMT -5
."""""" It is because we dont want to face and understand what is that we invent the many ways of escape and give them lovely names as the ideal,"""""
what true words.... and the same way we gloss over the unacceptable with acceptable names....killing ones own troops and allies becomes friendly fire....the deaths of civilian women and children becomes collateral damage the crippled and maimed have become disabled the mentally sick have also become mentally disabled the ignorant poor and politically and corruptly repressed... represented as the third world slums become deprived areas the more I think of it the more I realised just how much prettying up is done to avoid the reality of so much of of life interesting..so thankyou Men
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ladylinda
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Post by ladylinda on May 23, 2014 9:54:08 GMT -5
No, Fret, it's a simple FACT that you DO believe in atheism. Why are you so reluctant to admit it? Did you even bother to read the article I posted FROM an atheist who freely ADMITTED that atheism IS a belief system and that he can't understand WHY atheists don't just ADMIT that? how does one belive in atheism.... ? an atheist does not belive in the existence God.....simples .......that doesn't transform into an alternate beliefe system its getting like swimming in syrup Well, surely any kind of attitude or opinion is some kind of belief about something? And if you believe there isn't a God that's as much a belief as thinking there is. But since we seem to be getting hung up on the words 'belief' and belief systems' let's try and redefine what I'm saying. Atheists have an opinion that God doesn't exist. It's not a fact that God doesn't exist anymore than it's a fact He does. In my opinion there is a God; in the opinion of atheists there isn't a God. So on both sides we're talking about opinions. If you prefer me to use the word opinion rather than belief I'm easy. I don't think it makes any practical difference because we're still talking about ideas rather than facts and I can't really see any difference between calling the idea there isn't a God a belief and calling it an opinion. But since you atheists seem so terrified of admitting that your opinion IS a belief I'll use opinion instead.
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ladylinda
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Post by ladylinda on May 23, 2014 9:56:19 GMT -5
But that's just his (or her) opinion. And so is your opinion that he's wrong. The whole debate is all about opinion and not facts so what's the problem? Why are you atheists so scared of admitting your opinion on religion IS a belief? But like I said to Mouse if you prefer the word opinion to belief I'll use that one.
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ladylinda
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Post by ladylinda on May 23, 2014 9:58:47 GMT -5
Lady Linda, the writings of the young man stating that Atheism 'is' a belief is interesting and in fact his blog (where this article came from) had many of his opinions about a lot of subjects. However, what this proves is that you can find someone who has (will) offered a point of view about anything. It is certainly his opinion but it represents no definable segment of Atheistic communit. Certainly it doesn't offer the view point of Humanistic Atheism, or Existentialist Atheism, or Determinist Atheism. It is his singular point of view and he is welcome to it. You're implying that his point of view has some significant standing, it doesn't. It is merely the point of view of a single person. Agreed. There are different and varied opinions all over the web offering personal points of view about almost everything. Yet, they remain "opinion" ... food for thought but not fact .. not proof ... and not more important than Fret's opinion or mine or yours or Lin's. I don't think atheism is a belief system ... if anything, it's simply non-belief in the concept of religion as a whole. I don't necessarily agree but can accept and respect one's right to hold that opinion. Why, do you suppose, that is so hard for some to do? I think atheism, like ANY opinion, is a belief. Non-belief is still a form of belief. But like I said if people prefer the word opinion to belief I'll use that one. I don't have a problem with people having the opinion there is no God; the problem seems to be that some atheists have a problem with the idea that some people disagree with them.
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