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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2010 6:48:59 GMT -5
What is it that makes us call an action or even an attitude of mind evil? What do we mean when we make a moral judgement about the behaviour or beliefs of others, or indeed ourselves?
The twentieth century philosopher A J Ayer was somewhat less than convinced about the degree of justification for our moral positions. As he put it in one of his rare attempts at humour, saying that it was wrong for a person to steal meant nothing more than saying, in a voice full of horror, 'you stole that money.' Other thnkers, while perhaps less negative than Ayer, have struggled to defend the notion of moral absolutes.
Let us begin by establishing what evil is not. Many actions, in and of themselves, are not generally considered evil and there is also the question of context. The act of killing, except to the strictes of Quakers, Buddhists or those holding similar views, is generally excused in the following cases:
Self-defence
To protect others
In time of war
There are many other areas where fierce dispute exists. Is it morally right to abort a foetus? Is vigilante action sometimes justified? Is the death penalty an acceptable form of killing? If it is, should it be reserved for first degree murder or extended to other crimes?
The point is that an act may generally (though not invariably) provide a necessary condition for considering it evil but still not provide a sufficient condition.
What is, for instance, the ethical difference between Hitler's murders in the camps and the execution of someone has neither killed, conspired to kill nor assisted in the killing of another person?
So what is it that makes us call a given action evil? Is Ayer right, and is it nothing more than a shocked tone of voice on our part? Are we justified in ascribing evil to others?
And, by what right do we presume to make moral judgements at all? Are they in reality nothing more than our own prejudices and the result of societal conditioning?
I will enlarge on this topic and put forward some of my own ideas but it would be interesting to hear responses from members.
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Post by gabriel on Apr 20, 2010 7:19:08 GMT -5
That's a really good post. I'll have to think about the points you raise.
Gabriel
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Post by Wonder Woman on Apr 20, 2010 8:32:37 GMT -5
Excellent food for thought, Mike.
I think it is a matter of conditioning and perhaps our own experiences and choices, what we perceive to be 'evil', as opposed to acceptable, or even 'morally wrong'.
Cannibalism, for example, we'd consider morally wrong, even evil. Yet, if it meant our own deaths (as in 'Alive') I think eating the flesh of the dead would be not only acceptable, but morally right. If I'm there, I say if I die, you damned well better eat me or I'll come back and haunt yer arse.
And, too, with changing times and "civilization" we (supposedly) become less evil................ maybe.
I'll throw you some more thoughts as they come.
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Post by fretslider on Apr 20, 2010 14:54:38 GMT -5
Evil is an emotive word and I suppose it really describes thoughts and actions that fall outside social (and religious) norms.
Its easy to fall into the trap of judging anachronistically. The ancients found it quite acceptable to have slaves, yet we view slavery in a totally different light today. We cannot superimpose our values on those who have gone before.
Spinoza's excommunication...
The chiefs of the council make known to you that having long known of evil opinions and acts of Baruch de Spinoza, they have endeavored by various means and promises to turn him from evil ways. Not being able to find any remedy, but on the contrary receiving every day more information about the abominable heresies practiced and taught by him, and about the monstrous acts committed by him, having this from many trustworthy witnesses who have deposed and borne witness on all this in the presence of said Spinoza, who has been convicted; all this having been examined in the presence of the Rabbis, the council decided, with the advice of the Rabbi, that the said Spinoza should be excommunicated and cut off from the Nation of Israel.
Would we find Spinoza evil today, I think not.
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Post by Wonder Woman on Apr 21, 2010 11:43:01 GMT -5
So, more thoughts...
What are some other behaviours and beliefs that used to be acceptable, that today might be considered evil?
I'll start and pick an easy one: Burning witches at the stake.
Tougher question, I think... what are some behaviours and beliefs that are acceptable today that in the future you think might be objectionable, evil even?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2010 12:19:05 GMT -5
I am pleased that this thread has generated so much discussion. I had prepared an even more controversial topic for discussion but for the time being this is going well so I will hold back and allow it to run.
I believe that in response to your question we will come to view the insane greed of the world as morally wrong. I also believe that we will come to consider the staggering selfishness and lack of compassion of people as something that more truly resembled a vast mental hospital than a society.
We will also IMHO come to view the manifestly flawed justice system of the world as one of the worst crimes against humanity even in the sorry catalogue of human history.
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Post by fretslider on Apr 21, 2010 12:38:20 GMT -5
So, more thoughts... What are some other behaviours and beliefs that used to be acceptable, that today might be considered evil? I'll start and pick an easy one: Burning witches at the stake. Tougher question, I think... what are some behaviours and beliefs that are acceptable today that in the future you think might be objectionable, evil even? According to the Church Witches were 'evil'. Burning seems to have been most common in continental Europe while hanging was more common in Britain. The level of threat which the Church made out of witches and witchcraft was severe. Witches couldn't be allowed to live no matter what - not even if they were willing to admit all that they were accused of and fully repent. Their evil was too much of an existential threat to Christian society. At the time I would say that burning witches could not really be considered as evil, after all they were following their path to god within the conventions of the day. We have trouble today with some religious people of African extraction who declare children to be witches and torment, maim and kill them. One was dismembered and washed up in the Thames. These people I would venture are pretty close to what might be termed evil, but I'm not certain in my mind whether they know better or not. |
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Post by Wonder Woman on Apr 21, 2010 15:44:42 GMT -5
So, more thoughts... What are some other behaviours and beliefs that used to be acceptable, that today might be considered evil? I'll start and pick an easy one: Burning witches at the stake. Tougher question, I think... what are some behaviours and beliefs that are acceptable today that in the future you think might be objectionable, evil even? According to the Church Witches were 'evil'. Burning seems to have been most common in continental Europe while hanging was more common in Britain. The level of threat which the Church made out of witches and witchcraft was severe. Witches couldn't be allowed to live no matter what - not even if they were willing to admit all that they were accused of and fully repent. Their evil was too much of an existential threat to Christian society. At the time I would say that burning witches could not really be considered as evil, after all they were following their path to god within the conventions of the day. Right. They thought it necessary, good, righteous even. 'Course, now we mostly don't even consider most murderers evil, most don't even believe witchery or witchcraft is anything but fluff. Wow... I didn't know such stupidity was still going on anywhere.  |
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Post by Wonder Woman on Apr 21, 2010 15:48:41 GMT -5
I am pleased that this thread has generated so much discussion. I had prepared an even more controversial topic for discussion but for the time being this is going well so I will hold back and allow it to run. I believe that in response to your question we will come to view the insane greed of the world as morally wrong. I also believe that we will come to consider the staggering selfishness and lack of compassion of people as something that more truly resembled a vast mental hospital than a society. Honestly, Mike, I can't disagree with you. You are right. We have become a people of 'self'. On this, I would have to know more indepth your views, to know whether we're in agreement or not. |
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Post by michiganmagpie on Apr 21, 2010 18:45:51 GMT -5
...we will come to view the insane greed of the world as morally wrong. I also believe that we will come to consider the staggering selfishness and lack of compassion of people as something that more truly resembled a vast mental hospital than a society. Definitely. I can see that happening...maybe not in my lifetime, but yes, that is completely conceivable. |
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Post by beth on May 3, 2010 18:27:27 GMT -5
...we will come to view the insane greed of the world as morally wrong. I also believe that we will come to consider the staggering selfishness and lack of compassion of people as something that more truly resembled a vast mental hospital than a society. Definitely. I can see that happening...maybe not in my lifetime, but yes, that is completely conceivable. Agreed, absolutely. It's not only morally wrong, it is suffocating us. Once we are dumbed down, mentally and dragged down, morally we'll finally be the sheep of our nightmares. No free will, as in "resistance is futile." |
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