Erasmus
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"We do not take prisoners - we liberate them" - http://www.aeonbytegnosticradio.com
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Post by Erasmus on Mar 23, 2011 10:48:07 GMT -5
At the risk of invoking the dread spectre of Evolutionary Psychology, it makes sense for females to be more selfish than males, but that has nothing to do with any Neolithic; it goes right back to the first female not to walk off and leave her eggs to hatch on their own. If she dies, they die. If he dies - well he's done the business so actually he's expendable. Of course individual selfishness can develop into group selfishness, which from the individual's viewpoint involves a certain degree of altruism. It's obviously better for all concerned to gang up together to look after the collective kids (and get a bit of rest from them passing them on to somebody else).
What makes me feel guilty is causing disharmony. I need to justify asserting individuality that is going to separate me from everything else as a separate ego. I've always felt strongly that the ideal in life is merger and freedom from sense of separate identity rest5ricted to the material body. Unfortunately it took me a long time to realise that there is a paradox there, that is only after developing a strong sense of self-identity that it is possible to transcend it. One thinks of the close association between Daoist and Buddhist philosophies of peace, harmony and tranquillity and the Oriental martial arts. Have compassion on all living beings - while despatching them to their next life
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Post by beth on Mar 23, 2011 11:42:55 GMT -5
Interesting you mention the mother and the eggs. I think the one point at which females will self-sacrifice ... not all, of course, but most .. is in regard to their children. Do off-spring take advantage of this and use guilt to manipulate? No doubt some do, but, to me, it would be difficult ... near impossible .. to walk away i I could help them. Some fathers have this parental instinct, as well, but not all. Otherwise, I must disagree. Women, as a rule (drawing from experience and observation) are not naturally more selfish. jmo
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Erasmus
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Post by Erasmus on Mar 23, 2011 12:19:55 GMT -5
Hard to tell. Nurture almost always outweighs Nature anyway but it would make sense to be more self-protective - as long as children are considered an extension of self. Then again, there is that thing about about group selfishness. That makes individuals less selfish with regard to each other, maybe collectively more so towards other groups. There was an interesting article about sex differences a couple of New Scientists ago (subscriber only now) but most of which came down to saying that the overlap far outweighs extremes of difference except as society encourages them. Now, society did traditionally encourage girls to be self-centred and expect men to run after them, but you can't really say that it does any more.
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Post by maggie on Mar 23, 2011 14:02:38 GMT -5
What about feeling guilty for something you haven't done? I felt guilt after my mum died and I don't know why. I lived in the same road as her; she came to dinner every Sunday. I went out and about with her. She saw her grandchildren nearly every day. When she was ill I stayed with her every day and I was with her when she died. That was in 2002 and to this day, I still feel guilty for something; don't know what it is though. Just writing this is making me feel bad. She was only in hospital for 5 days before she died. I didn't tell her I loved her while she was in hospital. Perhaps that's it.
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Jessiealan
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Post by Jessiealan on Mar 23, 2011 16:10:43 GMT -5
What about feeling guilty for something you haven't done? I felt guilt after my mum died and I don't know why. I lived in the same road as her; she came to dinner every Sunday. I went out and about with her. She saw her grandchildren nearly every day. When she was ill I stayed with her every day and I was with her when she died. That was in 2002 and to this day, I still feel guilty for something; don't know what it is though. Just writing this is making me feel bad. She was only in hospital for 5 days before she died. I didn't tell her I loved her while she was in hospital. Perhaps that's it. Maggie, it can be something as simple as feeling guilty you are still alive and enjoying life while she is not. It does not seem logical but I believe that emotion is quite common.
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Post by maggie on Mar 24, 2011 11:52:05 GMT -5
What about feeling guilty for something you haven't done? I felt guilt after my mum died and I don't know why. I lived in the same road as her; she came to dinner every Sunday. I went out and about with her. She saw her grandchildren nearly every day. When she was ill I stayed with her every day and I was with her when she died. That was in 2002 and to this day, I still feel guilty for something; don't know what it is though. Just writing this is making me feel bad. She was only in hospital for 5 days before she died. I didn't tell her I loved her while she was in hospital. Perhaps that's it. Maggie, it can be something as simple as feeling guilty you are still alive and enjoying life while she is not. It does not seem logical but I believe that emotion is quite common. Thank you. That makes a lot of sense. x
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Erasmus
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Post by Erasmus on Mar 25, 2011 7:43:05 GMT -5
It sounds like variant on the well-known phenomenon of survivor guilt "Why was I preserved?" (I wonder if that could apply to some aspects of Israeli culture?) Probably it includes a perversion of mourning loss as well.
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Post by beth on Mar 25, 2011 12:34:32 GMT -5
Permanent loss calls upon a gambit of emotions. Nothing else is quite as difficult in life, and, certainly, guilt factors in.
How many of us feel varying degrees of guilt-by-association. For example ... guilt about the horrors of wars in which our country was heavily involved .. with or without our approval?
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Post by mouse on Mar 26, 2011 3:22:17 GMT -5
i refuse to feel guilty of anything for which i am not responsible
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Post by beth on Mar 26, 2011 8:32:46 GMT -5
mouse, do you mean *directly* responsible?
What if we (or anyone) had enthusiastically supported Blair or Bush and worked to see them elected to office. Then, watched as they rained shock and awe on Baghdad, killing a lot of innocent people .. including children. Would feelings of guilt by association be reasonable?
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Post by maggie on Mar 26, 2011 9:40:28 GMT -5
Don't think you could help but feel some kind of guilt; if you went to Baghdad and someone whose family Bliar had killed saw that you came from England (or America) - you'd have to go round with a notice on your back - "Blair/Bush - nothing to do with me"!!
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Post by mouse on Mar 26, 2011 13:38:28 GMT -5
mouse, do you mean *directly* responsible? What if we (or anyone) had enthusiastically supported Blair or Bush and worked to see them elected to office. Then, watched as they rained shock and awe on Baghdad, killing a lot of innocent people .. including children. Would feelings of guilt by association be reasonable? in regard to shock and awe the then mr mouse of the moment and i kept waiting to be awed and shocked..it didnt happen..a lot of hype..unpleasant for the recipients but hardly shocking oe awesome if i had suported those politians i may have felt some responsibility....but as i didnt i felt non what ever..and even less when it became apparent that the whole scenario was based upon a lie..so no i have no guilt about irak or afghanistan what ever...i do have a great deal of anger but that is a different matter just as i have no guilt about slavery or the bombing of dresden in one i had no part and in the other it was war..a proper winner takes all war where you pound the enemy and do what ever is necessary to a/ win b/make sure the enemy knows and understands they have lost and theres no way back but to surrender or submit [that is war as i know and underssand it..no quarter given untill vicyory is assured]
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Post by mouse on Mar 26, 2011 13:39:41 GMT -5
Don't think you could help but feel some kind of guilt; if you went to Baghdad and someone whose family Bliar had killed saw that you came from England (or America) - you'd have to go round with a notice on your back - "Blair/Bush - nothing to do with me"!! i would have none what ever maggie..i would be very angry.. but certainly not feel guilty
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Post by beth on Mar 26, 2011 14:24:27 GMT -5
Well, for my part, I voted for George Bush the first time around because I didn't like Al Gore.
but ...
as soon as the excuses for bombing all 'ell out of Baghdad started being floated in the media, it was obvious to me this was going to be an exercise in mass slaughter, just to make a show of retaliating against the horrors of 9/11/01. From everything that had been put forth by people who were sincerely trying to find answers (not politicians or the generals), it was starting to be all too obvious Iraq was not among the countries most likely to be involved.
so ...
At that point, I felt VERY guilty for having anything to do with making it possible for Bush-Cheney to win the WH and end up in that kind of position of power. VERY GUILTY! As a result, I took it upon myself to become better informed about national and international situations and events ... always before casting my vote. I may make other mistakes in the future, but won't ever again help hand over the keys without deep and serious consideration.
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Post by beth on Mar 28, 2011 9:15:14 GMT -5
Then, of course, the REALLY interesting wondering is whether Blair, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield et al feel any guilt, whatsoever.
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