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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2010 8:57:01 GMT -5
Ah, Erasmus, you raise the whole question of what it means to be self-conscious. If the cat is asleep, does it know it is sleeping? If WE are asleep, do we know we are sleeping?
What of near-death experiences? Or hauntings?
Now, to answer Lynne, I very much hope that you will not be put off by our mind games. The common sense approach to the world is to pretty much accept things as they appear to be.
Unfortunately, appearance and reality are anything but the same.
For instance, a stick placed in water appears to be bent but is actually straight.
The scent of a flower is not inherent to it but something that is added during the act of perception.
I could go on but I have no wish to inflict unnecessary layers of confusion and doubt upon you!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2010 9:01:11 GMT -5
Zeno himself MAY have intended to suggest (his work unfortunately survives only in fragments or in quotations from other writers so we cannot be sure) that motion, time and space were illusions.
What his argument certainly DOES suggest is that the MEANS by which we observe an arrow flying through the air and the BASIS upon which it appears to travel are NOT a simple matter of common sense but actually a profound paradox.
If one considers that a thing cannot be both itself and its opposite at the same time then it is hard to disagree with Zeno's analysis of movement.
(Naturally I have my own ideas on the subject which I will share with members but at present I am having a lot of fun throwing out paradoxes and seeing where they lead!)
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Erasmus
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Post by Erasmus on Apr 26, 2010 10:04:14 GMT -5
It looks as if that is a paradox that quantum physics ignores. As far as I can see, they ignore the possibility of a realler reality beyond personal experience as unknowable, therefore non-existent, so that only what is experienced is 'real'. That gets into a whole lot of problems when not all experiences are the same - relativity.
Just because something may not exist or be knowable is no reason to exclude it as a theoretical reference base. It works well enough for imaginary numbers. Or the theory can be reversed to take any particular experience as 'reference', or several in order. This came up a couple of weeks ago in a New Scientist article related to multiverse as a way out of the conundrum of not having a fixed reference point or time scale to project back. So take the (theoretical) view from any in turn. I don't remember the article in detail unfortunately and it would take me ages to find it again.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2010 10:12:28 GMT -5
At all events, Schroedinger's Cat is a far more interesting and complex animal than Pavlov's dog!
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Post by Wonder Woman on Apr 27, 2010 9:36:46 GMT -5
Ah, Erasmus, you raise the whole question of what it means to be self-conscious. If the cat is asleep, does it know it is sleeping? If WE are asleep, do we know we are sleeping? What of near-death experiences? Or hauntings? Now, to answer Lynne, I very much hope that you will not be put off by our mind games. The common sense approach to the world is to pretty much accept things as they appear to be. Unfortunately, appearance and reality are anything but the same. For instance, a stick placed in water appears to be bent but is actually straight. The scent of a flower is not inherent to it but something that is added during the act of perception. I could go on but I have no wish to inflict unnecessary layers of confusion and doubt upon you! Well, Mike, I do know that things are not always what the appear. And, too, that there are many things that simply (by logic) cannot be explained. What you guys are discussing is just a big 'owie' in my head. LOL Since that doesn't put me off, I guess that makes me a masochist.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2010 15:05:17 GMT -5
Not at all, Lynne. It makes you an intelligent and enquiring person with an open mind!
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alanseago
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Post by alanseago on Apr 29, 2010 10:41:14 GMT -5
We cannot be sure that we or the world exists. Put a wooden spoon and a steel spoon in a freezer for a night,take them out ans tell which one is colder. Wrong, of course they are both at the same temperature. We only know what what interpretation our brain puts on the signals it gets from our nerve endings. The same goes for sight, taste and hearing. What is noise? Our brain's interpretation of the vibration of our ear drums provoked by air waves. If there is no ear there is no noise. The world does not exist outside your head. When we both see a red rose, are you seeing the same colour as me? We can never know. How do you know the sky is blue? Your Mummy told you.
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Erasmus
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Post by Erasmus on Apr 29, 2010 12:40:05 GMT -5
So what if we take it even further and extrapolate that our experience of the material world is not at all what we know it to be scientifically but exists only as experienced 'from within' by our mind (intuitive rather than intellectual) and go from there to perhaps there is only one Mind operating through all material but when the material reaches a high enough level of organization, the bit of Mind operating through it identifies itself with that personage. There is only One but its diverse parts delude themselves that they are Many. Fixes Schroedinger's Cat as well since there is always an observer.
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Kay
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Post by Kay on Apr 29, 2010 19:18:15 GMT -5
This is only my second post, so I don't want to get in too deep.
My brother-in-law has been in the hospital this week, he has a dradful genetic disease that results in premature dementia, he's only just turned 50, but the disease is now effecting other parts of his body, and he's not doing so well. It usually strikes adults around middle age. He has two daughters that have a 50% chance of having inherited this disorder.
So my question, if you were my nieces, would you want to be tested to see if you have this disease, or is it better not to know?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2010 19:53:04 GMT -5
This is only my second post, so I don't want to get in too deep. My brother-in-law has been in the hospital this week, he has a dradful genetic disease that results in premature dementia, he's only just turned 50, but the disease is now effecting other parts of his body, and he's not doing so well. It usually strikes adults around middle age. He has two daughters that have a 50% chance of having inherited this disorder. So my question, if you were my nieces, would you want to be tested to see if you have this disease, or is it better not to know? I would want to know so I could prepare my life if that is what I'm going to be facing How sad for all of you who love him
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Post by fretslider on Apr 30, 2010 8:12:59 GMT -5
This is only my second post, so I don't want to get in too deep. My brother-in-law has been in the hospital this week, he has a dradful genetic disease that results in premature dementia, he's only just turned 50, but the disease is now effecting other parts of his body, and he's not doing so well. It usually strikes adults around middle age. He has two daughters that have a 50% chance of having inherited this disorder. So my question, if you were my nieces, would you want to be tested to see if you have this disease, or is it better not to know? Unlike chef, I would not want to know, I would say live life to the full. As there's no cure the best plan is to have an exit strategy worked out - just in case its needed.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2010 9:06:58 GMT -5
I would feel the same way as Chefmate. It is better IMHO to know the worst rather than simply to dwell in blissful ignorance.
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Post by Wonder Woman on Apr 30, 2010 10:22:55 GMT -5
This is only my second post, so I don't want to get in too deep. My brother-in-law has been in the hospital this week, he has a dradful genetic disease that results in premature dementia, he's only just turned 50, but the disease is now effecting other parts of his body, and he's not doing so well. It usually strikes adults around middle age. He has two daughters that have a 50% chance of having inherited this disorder. So my question, if you were my nieces, would you want to be tested to see if you have this disease, or is it better not to know? So sorry your brother-in-law is doing so badly, Kay. Very sad for you all. I think if I were your nieces (his daughters) I would choose to live as though I'm sure to get the disease... I think too often we take life for granted. How wonderfully freeing to presume what you're likely to die of and around when. Most of us walk through life oblivious, and then, looking back, scratch our head at all we haven't done. So, I can't say I'd necessarily want to be tested... but I think I'd think twice about having children of my own.
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Kay
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Post by Kay on Apr 30, 2010 21:18:05 GMT -5
Thanks everyone, for your responses. Both of my nieces have decided not be to tested. I believe, if I were in their shoes, I would probably want to know.
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Erasmus
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Post by Erasmus on Apr 30, 2010 22:48:16 GMT -5
They do call Alzheimer'sd and similar dementias The Happy Disease because you are not aware of what you have. I've known both a paranoid schizophrenic and a glandular schizophrenic lacking the paranoia. The second did have some awareness of her condition and strove against it, but when she lapsed was like thinking that you must get up - but not yet. The first lacked all self-awareness. You can feel sorry for them (but also wonder how they differ much from a lot of the human race bound down in petty politics), but actually, they are mostly in a better position than most of us, free from responsibility! Zen and Daoist idealists are often called Madmen because those philosophies preach 'liberation' from mundane responsibilities and it is very hard to tell from the middle, the difference between rising above and sinking below
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