aubrey
Journeyman
There will come a time when you can even take your clothes off when you dance
Posts: 385
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Post by aubrey on Oct 1, 2010 14:39:32 GMT -5
Do you mean the "Most of them did grow out of it" bit?
(Erasmus's post does leave out the working classes, it is true.)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2010 15:36:55 GMT -5
Since sex and sexuality are fundamental human characteristics, I do not believe that class comes into it.
Perhaps during the years when homosexuality was illegal it MIGHT have been practised more frequently by the wealthy and upper classes because they could use their influence to avoid prosecution, but I honestly doubt whether or not that has been the case for many years.
Homosexuality appears to be a 'classless' sexual perversion as do paedophilia and rape.
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Post by fretslider on Oct 1, 2010 15:59:34 GMT -5
Since sex and sexuality are fundamental human characteristics, I do not believe that class comes into it. Perhaps during the years when homosexuality was illegal it MIGHT have been practised more frequently by the wealthy and upper classes because they could use their influence to avoid prosecution, but I honestly doubt whether or not that has been the case for many years. Homosexuality appears to be a 'classless' sexual perversion as do paedophilia and rape. Biologically speaking, it is not regarded as a perversion. It occurs across a great many species, of which Homo sapiens just happens to be one. I get you don't like it, I'm strictly butter side up myself, but I don't believe homosexuals are perverted. Its (usually) consenting and above the age of majority. My own view is that there is no need for a minority of homosexuals to constantly parade their sexuality. many just get on with their lives like anybody else and that is how it should be. [ As in many indigenous cultures around the world, homosexual and transgender individuals (and animals) are considered routine and expected. Many Native American tribes formally recognize these homosexual and transgendered individuals in the role of the "two-spirit" person. Two-spirit transvestite and homosexual roles are known to have been recognized and honoured, at the present time or historically, in more than 150 different tribes.
The two-spirit is a man or woman who mixes gender roles by wearing clothes of the opposite or both sexes, doing both male and female (or primarily "opposite-gender") work, and often engaging in same-sex relations with other members of the tribe.] Of course North American tribes did not have the burden of Christianity's view on the matter
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2010 16:05:55 GMT -5
Since sex and sexuality are fundamental human characteristics, I do not believe that class comes into it. Perhaps during the years when homosexuality was illegal it MIGHT have been practised more frequently by the wealthy and upper classes because they could use their influence to avoid prosecution, but I honestly doubt whether or not that has been the case for many years. Homosexuality appears to be a 'classless' sexual perversion as do paedophilia and rape. Biologically speaking, it is not regarded as a perversion. It occurs across a great many species, of which Homo sapiens just happens to be one. I get you don't like it, I'm strictly butter side up myself, but I don't believe homosexuals are perverted. Its (usually) consenting and above the age of majority. My own view is that there is no need for a minority of homosexuals to constantly parade their sexuality. many just get on with their lives like anybody else and that is how it should be. [ As in many indigenous cultures around the world, homosexual and transgender individuals (and animals) are considered routine and expected. Many Native American tribes formally recognize these homosexual and transgendered individuals in the role of the "two-spirit" person. Two-spirit transvestite and homosexual roles are known to have been recognized and honoured, at the present time or historically, in more than 150 different tribes.
The two-spirit is a man or woman who mixes gender roles by wearing clothes of the opposite or both sexes, doing both male and female (or primarily "opposite-gender") work, and often engaging in same-sex relations with other members of the tribe.] Of course North American tribes did not have the burden of Christianity's view on the matter I'm not sure we disagree on this topic as much as you think, Fret. One of my best friends was gay and I cried when I went to his funeral and made a speech saying what a nice chap he was and what a good poet and how sad it was that he'd died so young (of AIDS, though I was tactful enough not to mention the elephant in the room.) I just can't understand how men can prefer sex with their own gender rather than with women. Females have MUCH more going for them when it comes to the aspect of physical attraction than we males do. But of course I'm very sad when, for example, a student at uni felt so pressured by being 'outed' that he took his own life. I'm not of course speaking from the Christian point of view on the subject either. I'm just speaking as a human being. I might have my prejudices but when I am faced with a real life human being who simply happens to prefer a different kind of sexual orientation I do NOT condemn them. I remember once comforting a 16-year old boy who'd just decided he was gay and I tried to make him understand that even if he was it didn't make him a bad person. As for biology, I'm afraid I find it far less interesting and compelling as an explanation of human behaviour than physics!
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Post by fretslider on Oct 1, 2010 16:15:06 GMT -5
Biologically speaking, it is not regarded as a perversion. It occurs across a great many species, of which Homo sapiens just happens to be one. I get you don't like it, I'm strictly butter side up myself, but I don't believe homosexuals are perverted. Its (usually) consenting and above the age of majority. My own view is that there is no need for a minority of homosexuals to constantly parade their sexuality. many just get on with their lives like anybody else and that is how it should be. [ As in many indigenous cultures around the world, homosexual and transgender individuals (and animals) are considered routine and expected. Many Native American tribes formally recognize these homosexual and transgendered individuals in the role of the "two-spirit" person. Two-spirit transvestite and homosexual roles are known to have been recognized and honoured, at the present time or historically, in more than 150 different tribes.
The two-spirit is a man or woman who mixes gender roles by wearing clothes of the opposite or both sexes, doing both male and female (or primarily "opposite-gender") work, and often engaging in same-sex relations with other members of the tribe.] Of course North American tribes did not have the burden of Christianity's view on the matter I'm not sure we disagree on this topic as much as you think, Fret. One of my best friends was gay and I cried when I went to his funeral and made a speech saying what a nice chap he was and what a good poet and how sad it was that he'd died so young (of AIDS, though I was tactful enough not to mention the elephant in the room.) I just can't understand how men can prefer sex with their own gender rather than with women. Females have MUCH more going for them when it comes to the aspect of physical attraction than we males do. But of course I'm very sad when, for example, a student at uni felt so pressured by being 'outed' that he took his own life. I'm not of course speaking from the Christian point of view on the subject either. I'm just speaking as a human being. I might have my prejudices but when I am faced with a real life human being who simply happens to prefer a different kind of sexual orientation I do NOT condemn them. I remember once comforting a 16-year old boy who'd just decided he was gay and I tried to make him understand that even if he was it didn't make him a bad person. As for biology, I'm afraid I find it far less interesting and compelling as an explanation of human behaviour than physics! You don't have to understand it. Who really understands women? On attraction I feel you are not being objective. The whole point of attraction is that certain individuals are attracted to certain other individuals. Why do some men and women have affairs? Why are some people attracted to the same sex? Because that's the way they are. Once a biological entity is aroused, you could say physics comes into play.
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Post by mouse on Oct 1, 2010 16:49:11 GMT -5
Homosexuality appears to be a 'classless' sexual perversion as do paedophilia and rape. i dont see homosexuality as a perversion at all...its a human condition as naturaly ocuring as a stammer or a lisp....just because like a stammer or a lisp it isnt a majority pursuit..it doesnt mean its a perversion.. the trouble is that there are homosexuals who pervert homosexuality by acting up..there is absolutly not medical reason for the mincing limp wristed lisping high voiced camp look at me males....fine as a tv show...not so fine in real life..and gives the more fem homosexual a bad time....same with the overly butch lesbian who exagerates her dikeness and certainly its classless i dont see how anyone can say it was more an upper class thing..when especially in london it cut clear across all stratas.....the working class were not as open nor did they have the money to be..plus the social norms of working class young men marrying earlier and being more involved in a mans world of physical labour and mens company am probably not explaining my self as i am tired ....so i will shush[but i know what i mean]
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Post by mouse on Oct 1, 2010 16:52:28 GMT -5
there is no answer to attraction[leaving one night stands out of it........some people your attracted to become good friends..others become lovers...its as simple as that
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aubrey
Journeyman
There will come a time when you can even take your clothes off when you dance
Posts: 385
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Post by aubrey on Oct 2, 2010 6:04:35 GMT -5
I think you're right in that it's probably not necessary now, here; but in the past it was, for some people, as a sort of code; and so it has become part of that culture - like cottaging is, even now. For manymen, sex in public toilets was their first experience of homosex, so the atmosphere of that setting is still part of their sexuality, and of homosex culture, even though it is not really a necessity any longer - it is legal and easy these days to meet people in regular pubs etc. For many years it wasn't.
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aubrey
Journeyman
There will come a time when you can even take your clothes off when you dance
Posts: 385
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Post by aubrey on Oct 2, 2010 6:08:50 GMT -5
I've seen gay men saying exactly the opposite. And also saying that two men can do much more together (of a sexual nature) than a man and a woman can. And a woman saying the same about two women.
It's just a matter of taste. Personally, I can't stick cous cous, but some people love it. Bloody perverts.
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Post by biglin on Oct 2, 2010 14:59:20 GMT -5
At the risk of sounding crude, women have an extra aperture that can be used for sexual - congress.
They also have nice curves up top which men don't have!
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Post by Wonder Woman on Oct 2, 2010 16:38:20 GMT -5
So, sure. Oh, but wait........... will there be pictures involved?
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Erasmus
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"We do not take prisoners - we liberate them" - http://www.aeonbytegnosticradio.com
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Post by Erasmus on Oct 2, 2010 20:16:14 GMT -5
I see official acceptance of homosexuality as only a reaction against sexual liberalisation and a restoration of sexist stereotypes. When I was a teenager it was possible to say that a boy has long hair, likes girly things and rejects traditional images of masculinity (and of course a girl likewise equivalent) and may even admit to sexual experimentaion with other boys that most have always had but kept quiet about - but that doesn't make him queer.
Today it does. We are back to the time before that liberalization when you either conformed to heterosexist stereotype or learnt to cut yourself out and be one of them. OK, so it doesn't have the same opprobrium any more, but that does not make it any less oppressive typecasting. It's like telling women that if they are not virgins when they marry, they are whores - but there's nothing wrong with being a whore, just don't pretend you are not.
Personally, I regard anything as a perversion if it takes precedence over mating and replaces it. I see no connection between homosexual activity and rejection of heterosexuality except prejudice specific to this culture. Ancient Greek men notoriously had young boyfriends and upper-class boys around puberty were coached in the same kind of petulant flounciness as later girls in for instance Gigi. Yet Lysistrata could imagine women sexually significant enough for refusal of sex to be a credible constraint upon men.
All the traditional prejudices about what distinguishes heterosexual from homosexual teenagers for the rest of their life are alive and kicking, and where before there was some leeway to say Just because I look or dress or act that way doesn't mean I can't relate to the other sex, now there is greater pressure of You don't need to hide what we have decided you are
To have homosexual relationships is one thing. To use them - or even believe them - as a justification for eliminating the other sex from equal relationships in advance is something entirely different. It is the difference between admitting to masturbation and claiming that providing your own thrills exempts you from need for relationship but should be recognized as an equal 'sexuality'. People who flaunt homosexuality as an excuse for rejecting relationship with the other sex are no different from people who would flaunt their natural predeliction for their own race to excuse rejecting even the possibility of relationship with any other race in advance.
At best, they have been brought up with severe inhibitions against those different from themselves. At worst, they are inventing an orientation to excuse their prejudice against the other. It's easy to see how -parents can instill prejudice against the other sex and sex with them while teaching no such prohibition against homosexuality because it would not enter their thoughts even to condemn. So their children grow up prejudiced against the other sex but with no inhibitions against sensation with their own. Likewise, public display of specific characteristics and mannerism as excluding from heterosexuality teaches children to grow up believing that if they behave that way, they cannt love the other sex as equal human beings like their own - and the heterosexual conservative ideal remains unchallenged. Exactly the same happens among racists except reversed, where it is heteroraciality that is seen as the outsider and homoraciality as the norm.
Exclusive homosexuality is the sexual equivalent to racism and should be treated as such. Gay Pride might as well be called White Pride or Black Pride and serves the conservative purpose of telling children You behave like this and you can't have lovers of the other sex; if you want the other sex to accept you, don't behave like this. We don't get parades of other sexual fetishes to encourage to join in as well as 'vanilla sex' do we? Although strictly an inverse, it might as well be licensed blacks in Dixieland warning whites to avoid jazz or Nazi exhibitions of Degenerate Jewish Art. Its whole point is to isolate, segregate and denigrate.
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Post by sadie on Oct 2, 2010 22:17:24 GMT -5
You don't have to understand it. Who really understands women? On attraction I feel you are not being objective. The whole point of attraction is that certain individuals are attracted to certain other individuals. Why do some men and women have affairs? Why are some people attracted to the same sex? Because that's the way they are. Once a biological entity is aroused, you could say physics comes into play. Hey hey hey.......who understands MEN!!! Too broad a question for me.......am I just casually entering this relationship.....then probably no.......I am just more attracted to men. Is my family starving and this is my only means of saving them.....then hey sign me up..... (I do have to say there is a female guard at the Ontario Airport in California that owes me dinner and a movie.....or at least a call.......after that extremely thorough search she did I think that is the least she could do......I felt a little cheap afterwards when she didn't......)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2010 22:38:53 GMT -5
So, sure. Oh, but wait........... will there be pictures involved? For a million big ones, I'd pose for Geraldo Rivera.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2010 22:56:21 GMT -5
Had to vote "no" I'd have flashbacks the rest of my life. Mental health has value, too Flashbacks are curable, Jen.
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