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Post by fretslider on May 6, 2011 16:37:27 GMT -5
Having rigged Devolution its all gone horribly wrong. The Labour strategists who dreamed up the Holyrood parliament devised a voting system that they said would guarantee – repeat guarantee – that the SNP could ever get an overall majority and wrest Scotland from the Union. Yet, Alex Salmond's party has achieved 65 seats which means there will be a referendum on independence during the next term. The SNP leader has promised to stage a vote on separation in the second half of the parliament, which lasts until 2016, but will come under pressure from his party’s fundamentalist wing to bring forward the date. “It is time for Scotland to take responsibility and become a nation once again,” Salmond said. Westminster is dead set against an English parliament. But if the Scots decide to go their own way.... There will be no choice but to create an English parliament. I had hoped the SNP would do well, but they have exceeded my expectations and consequently I'll be celebrating their victory Devolution has taken us to where some of us always thought it would take us – to the brink of the break up of the United Kingdom. How could it have been otherwise? Alex Salmond bows to no-one now. Here's to Scottish independence and an English parliament. An excellent result all round.
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Post by biglin on May 6, 2011 17:04:44 GMT -5
That's one way of looking at it.
Maybe because I'm mixed race myself I find this kind of rant particularly hard to take.
I've grown up feeling English, sure; but also British.
I've grown up looking on the Scots and Welsh and Irish as our brothers and sisters.
I've grown up looking on them as being equal partners in a Union.
I've grown up looking on them with affection and respect.
The casual racism which I've seen directed, particularly against the Scots, makes me terribly sad.
We've been glad enough to have Scots fighting and dying side by side with English warriors.
We were glad enough of Scottish oil when it suited us.
We were willing enough to use them as guinea pigs for Thatcher's poll tax.
Now it suits some people to cast them aside and treat them as if they were nothing.
I cried when I heard the results in Scotland.
It is terribly sad to see how the Scottish Nazi Party has been able to hoodwink the voters and how gleefully what in the nineteenth century were called "Little Englanders" welcome it.
I love our friends across the Cheviots and I love the Union and I'm deeply sad to think it might break up.
The UK is hardly a big country and England on its own would be even smaller.
I'm sad to see how hatred has won out over positive feelings, how racism has been rewarded and how people can so gleefully welcome the destruction of our country and our people.
It's a sad day and a bad day for humanity and compassion.
Apart from anything else, an independent England would NEVER be able to get rid of that odious traitor Cameron and his ilk (to use a Scottish expression).
We'd be stuck with the Tories who've been selling Britain down the river for years and we'd NEVER get them out!
Some benefit!
Most of all, though, I just feel a deep sense of sadness and betrayal.
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Post by Soulman on May 6, 2011 17:04:59 GMT -5
Having rigged Devolution its all gone horribly wrong. The Labour strategists who dreamed up the Holyrood parliament devised a voting system that they said would guarantee – repeat guarantee – that the SNP could ever get an overall majority and wrest Scotland from the Union. Yet, Alex Salmond's party has achieved 65 seats which means there will be a referendum on independence during the next term. The SNP leader has promised to stage a vote on separation in the second half of the parliament, which lasts until 2016, but will come under pressure from his party’s fundamentalist wing to bring forward the date. “It is time for Scotland to take responsibility and become a nation once again,” Salmond said. Westminster is dead set against an English parliament. But if the Scots decide to go their own way.... There will be no choice but to create an English parliament. I had hoped the SNP would do well, but they have exceeded my expectations and consequently I'll be celebrating their victory Devolution has taken us to where some of us always thought it would take us – to the brink of the break up of the United Kingdom. How could it have been otherwise? Alex Salmond bows to no-one now. Here's to Scottish independence and an English parliament. An excellent result all round. Can not argue with that...any of it.
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Post by biglin on May 6, 2011 17:06:22 GMT -5
Why not, Soulman?
It's as full of holes as a sieve!
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Post by fretslider on May 6, 2011 17:16:35 GMT -5
That's one way of looking at it. Maybe because I'm mixed race myself I find this kind of rant particularly hard to take. I've grown up feeling English, sure; but also British. I've grown up looking on the Scots and Welsh and Irish as our brothers and sisters. I've grown up looking on them as being equal partners in a Union. I've grown up looking on them with affection and respect. The casual racism which I've seen directed, particularly against the Scots, makes me terribly sad. We've been glad enough to have Scots fighting and dying side by side with English warriors. We were glad enough of Scottish oil when it suited us. We were willing enough to use them as guinea pigs for Thatcher's poll tax. Now it suits some people to cast them aside and treat them as if they were nothing. I cried when I heard the results in Scotland. It is terribly sad to see how the Scottish Nazi Party has been able to hoodwink the voters and how gleefully what in the nineteenth century were called "Little Englanders" welcome it. I love our friends across the Cheviots and I love the Union and I'm deeply sad to think it might break up. The UK is hardly a big country and England on its own would be even smaller. I'm sad to see how hatred has won out over positive feelings, how racism has been rewarded and how people can so gleefully welcome the destruction of our country and our people. It's a sad day and a bad day for humanity and compassion. Apart from anything else, an independent England would NEVER be able to get rid of that odious traitor Cameron and his ilk (to use a Scottish expression). We'd be stuck with the Tories who've been selling Britain down the river for years and we'd NEVER get them out! Some benefit! Most of all, though, I just feel a deep sense of sadness and betrayal. Its the only way of looking at it. There are no equals in the Union now and the English got the worst possible deal out of the settlement. I didn't vote for Thatcher, so I refute your allegation that WE used the Scots as guinea pigs. The Tories have never recovered from that in Scotland as the results show. Did you cry at the news that they pay next to nothing for education and care, and we pay everything - including the Barnett formula? "the Scottish Nazi Party" That's just silly, Jeez. England has been on its own quite comfortably in the past and can be again in the future. The Union is as good as over - even if the Scots don't vote for independence this time round. There is a direction of travel, it can't be reversed.
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Post by fretslider on May 6, 2011 17:18:07 GMT -5
Why not, Soulman? It's as full of holes as a sieve! Really? Do enlighten us.....
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Post by Soulman on May 6, 2011 17:21:15 GMT -5
That's one way of looking at it. Maybe because I'm mixed race myself I find this kind of rant particularly hard to take. I've grown up feeling English, sure; but also British. I've grown up looking on the Scots and Welsh and Irish as our brothers and sisters. I've grown up looking on them as being equal partners in a Union. I've grown up looking on them with affection and respect. The casual racism which I've seen directed, particularly against the Scots, makes me terribly sad. We've been glad enough to have Scots fighting and dying side by side with English warriors. We were glad enough of Scottish oil when it suited us. We were willing enough to use them as guinea pigs for Thatcher's poll tax. Now it suits some people to cast them aside and treat them as if they were nothing. I cried when I heard the results in Scotland. It is terribly sad to see how the Scottish Nazi Party has been able to hoodwink the voters and how gleefully what in the nineteenth century were called "Little Englanders" welcome it. I love our friends across the Cheviots and I love the Union and I'm deeply sad to think it might break up. The UK is hardly a big country and England on its own would be even smaller. I'm sad to see how hatred has won out over positive feelings, how racism has been rewarded and how people can so gleefully welcome the destruction of our country and our people. It's a sad day and a bad day for humanity and compassion. Apart from anything else, an independent England would NEVER be able to get rid of that odious traitor Cameron and his ilk (to use a Scottish expression). We'd be stuck with the Tories who've been selling Britain down the river for years and we'd NEVER get them out! Some benefit! Most of all, though, I just feel a deep sense of sadness and betrayal. The Scottish, Irish and Welsh are the ones that have broken up/away from the Union, they are the ones that have their own parliaments and assemblies, they are the ones benefitting from devolution and the Barnett Formula, they are the ones that have powerful nationalist parties (SNP and Plaid) not us. Just look at the mixed races we have playing sports for England, many more than the Scots, Welsh and NI. England needs it's OWN voice and Parliament, the same as the other 3 UK nations. As for Labour, i give you the Labour Scottish Claim Of Rights, all duly signed...thank god that lot are not still in. By the way, if you can point out many people of mixed races in politics, sport, media etc in these 3 nations like we have in England, then i would suggest that it is not England that is racist...and there is plenty of anti English feeling amongst these 3 nations as well. English 1st, British 2nd.
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Post by Soulman on May 6, 2011 17:25:27 GMT -5
Why not, Soulman? It's as full of holes as a sieve! See Above.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2011 17:40:17 GMT -5
It's the only way of looking at it
I am no more a Unionist than I am a royalist, no more a Little Englander than I am a Europhile, and no respecter of ANY nation state NOR of the "right" of peoples to regard themselves as in some mystical fashion as belonging to a particular club and therefore in some sense at least not merely separate from but even to a degree superior to those of other "clubs."
However, the statement "it's the only way of looking at it" is yet again simply an expression of OPINION and NOT a fact.
Your opinion is as valid as mine or anyone else's but it's certainly NOT the case that one can reasonably make a statement that "it's the only way of looking at it" as if it WERE a fact rather than an expression of opinion.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2011 17:42:07 GMT -5
In any event, what precisely ARE these "hopes?"
Indefinite Tory government in England?
The complete destruction of the National Health Service?
Record levels of unemployment?
Rather than seeking to break up the United Kingdom, it would be far more productive for us to withdraw from the appalling European Union.
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Post by Soulman on May 6, 2011 17:47:13 GMT -5
"Rather than seeking to break up the United Kingdom, it would be far more productive for us to withdraw from the appalling European Union"
I agree with that.
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Post by mouse on May 7, 2011 2:20:47 GMT -5
perhaps the English should have a vote as to whether they wish to continue with scotland...now that would be demorcratic i have always been a unionist..and watched blair oversee the break up of the uk and was incredibly sad... but if scotland doesnt want to be aligned so be it but lets have no half mesures how ever i do want to see every scot out of every level of government..out of every level of the civil service from whitehall down to the local post man..i want every scot out of every council house...hospital bed...school and job.. if scotland wants its freedom so be it....but it must take its unemplyed back and find housing and jobs for all those at present working in England...it isnt for the English to subsidise scotland in any way shape or form then we can deal with wales in the same way and n ireland too England can have its own government back at westminster...an English gov for English people no matter what the consequences good or bad..on our own heads be it
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Post by mouse on May 7, 2011 2:23:43 GMT -5
We'd be stuck with the Tories who've been selling Britain down the river for years and we'd NEVER get them out! Some benefit! but lin...if the english wanted and voted for the tory party..why not..... that is democracy the english are a ""conservative""" peoples not given to hysteria and wild extreemes but i would rather be part of the union and fighting the EU odd rewally especially as it was the scots who JOINED England rather than England who joined the scots via james 1st and 4th a little fact so often overlooked...
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Post by biglin on May 7, 2011 18:47:06 GMT -5
On a purely historical note, Edward I managed to conquer Scotland and if his son hadn't messed up big-time at Bannockburn you'd have had the union of the two countries from 1296 to the present day.
In some ways that might have made it HARDER for the Scots and English to accept the Union; in other ways it might have made it easier.
Whenever you get one-party rule with no prospect of changing you get problems. The electorate gets even MORE apathetic than they already are; extremists, subversives and terrorists get stronger; democracy dies of boredom; and the party in power can push through any policies it wants because nothing can stop it legally.
Democracy in itself isn't enough IMO; you'd be the LAST person, Mouse, to support (for instance) making extreme Muslim policies the law of the land if that was the wish of the majority.
Or maybe you wouldn't; maybe you're a democrat who believes that whatever the majority says is right.
I'm not that sort of democrat; I'm a libertarian and I believe that the rights of minorities have to be protected as well as the wishes of the majority.
Maybe that's the difference between us.
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Erasmus
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"We do not take prisoners - we liberate them" - http://www.aeonbytegnosticradio.com
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Post by Erasmus on May 7, 2011 21:34:10 GMT -5
Scotland as bribed into English colonisation presented as equal 'union' because England chose Scottish monarchy. They were guaranteed the option to return to independence but the reality was like all English guarantees, when they chose to retain their own independent monarchy in 1707, 1715 and 1745, the English slaughtered them.
"What a parcel of rogues in a nation"
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