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Post by fretslider on Feb 2, 2021 6:53:34 GMT -5
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Post by jackthelad on Feb 2, 2021 8:16:55 GMT -5
Yes easy to dispose of, just send it to a third World country, they are becoming a dumping site along with the seas and oceans. Yep. It is easily disposed of, in the sea and oceans it becomes the Marine life problem. It doesn’t appear that plastic good for re-cycling. Just saying. And now why don't you tell us what you would replace that plastic with. Give us your best 2 or 3 alternatives We coped without plastic very well before plastic was introduced we could do the same again. I ain’t no scientist so can’t come up with another solution. But if they persist in the use of plastic, why not melt it down to make things like bricks for building instead of just dumping unwanted plastic bottles, boxes, and the like. Instead of polluting the Planet with it, causing untold trouble and dangers to sea life and other things. Just saying.
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toby1
Craftsman
Supplier of White Flags to the French Army.
Posts: 1,987
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Post by toby1 on Feb 2, 2021 9:54:05 GMT -5
Of course used Plastic material needs to be properly taken care of and there are some firms that do this, as part of my job I used to Inspect commodities and materials, one firm I visited took used Plastic materials, cleaned then heated the stuff after mixing, in a massive rotating drum with Oxygen removed and rolled the melted plastic into sheets which were cut into slabs to line chutes and hoppers carrying coal, iron ore, rocks, stones, bricks, etc. The Plastic sheets were used as a barrier to stop the steel being worn away. A good idea but the demand for such stuff is not great and the amount of plastic waste is colossal. I reckon that Governments are going to have to get tough on anybody selling stuff packed in plastic and make them responsible for disposal then maybe that would concentrate their minds on finding a solution.
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apple
Apprentice
Posts: 210
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Post by apple on Feb 2, 2021 14:20:44 GMT -5
This is an interesting read.
SEPTEMBER 05, 2019 | 3:12 PM THE CLIMATE DENIAL MACHINE: HOW THE FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY BLOCKS CLIMATE ACTION. It takes a lot to defy common sense on a global scale, all to benefit one industry. But for decades, fossil fuel interests have done just that, running a sophisticated and sprawling network of well-funded think tanks and front groups with one goal: Stop any real climate action, no matter the cost to billions. In 1964, US Surgeon General Luther Terry released a landmark report that would drastically change American society. Having reviewed over 7,000 articles on smoking and disease, he confidently concluded that cigarettes were indeed causing a lung cancer epidemic that was impossible to ignore.
This reality may have dismayed tobacco industry executives, but it definitely didn’t stop them from carrying on business as usual.
In fact, in a radical effort to protect their product, cigarette companies launched a massive misinformation campaign that successfully shrouded the truth for years. These companies used their soaring budgets to create industrial-grade doubt, suppressing life-saving science in the process.
The craziest part of that story? That today the exact same scenario is unfolding before our eyes. Fossil fuel interests are using the same strategies (and even strategists!) that the cigarette industry once used to deceive the public and protect their profits.
The difference? This time around, it's not just smokers’ lives in danger. It’s everyone’s – and the stakes could not be higher. Just as this past June and July were recorded as the hottest ever, the climate denial machine continues to churn out junk-science, protecting what should be a fossilized dirty-energy industry.
A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE DENIAL MACHINE If that was a surprise, now might be a good time to grab your seat. The shocking truth is that this denial machine has been shaping public and political opinion on climate change since the 1970s.
It all began with Exxon Mobil.
Decades ago, the company’s own scientists confirmed that carbon emissions were indeed warming our planet. As an internal report produced by Exxon researcher James Black from 1978 states, “A doubling of carbon dioxide is estimated to be capable of increasing the average global temperature by from 1° to 3°C, with a 10°C rise predicted at the poles.”
Realizing that their product was on the line, Exxon Mobil began pushing forward a multimillion-dollar misinformation campaign to cast doubt on well-established science. So well-established in fact, even all those decades ago, that the company was using the same climate models it publicly attacked to plan future operations in the Arctic — a region they knew would become cheaper to drill as temperatures rose and sea ice rapidly melted.
Exxon might have been a pioneering denier, but they were not alone. As the 1980s and 1990s carried on, a slew of other corporations joined this war against science.
Notably, at a 1980 American Petroleum Institute meeting, representatives from companies including Exxon, Texaco, and Shell concluded that as a “likely impact,” by 2005 we would see 1 degree Celsius of warming. They also concluded that by 2038 we would see 2.5 degrees of warming causing “major economic consequences,” and that by 2067 we would face a 5 degree rise with “globally catastrophic effects.”
In spite of knowing that, for every action the world took to address the crisis, the fossil fuel industry presented an equal and opposite reaction – constantly finding new ways to cloud the truth. Ultimately, these efforts produced the deeply-rooted denial machine we face today.
HOW IT ALL WORKS It’s not easy to shape public opinion when the facts are against you. So, the industry began attacking the facts, creating an alternate universe where decades of rising CO2 and rising temperatures had nothing to do with each other and scientists who claimed that we had to act were alarmists not to be trusted.
Getting enough people to join them in that universe, well, that took some work.
Their effort ultimately produced a full-on denial machine: a huge, sprawling network of talking heads, front groups, and faux-research built to persuade people that we have nothing to worry about.
To understand how it all comes together, it’s worth looking at the five key parts.
The Fuel: Fossil Fuel Industry Funding
In order to run, any machine needs fuel. In the case of this denial machine, that fuel is money – and lots of it. The source? A fossil fuel industry that desperately wants to prolong our dependence on its product.
Given that so many of the world’s most profitable companies produce oil, coal, or natural gas, it should be no surprise that these companies have plenty of "fuel" to keep the denial machine running.
To be exact, a 2019 Influence Map report found that “the five largest publicly-traded oil and gas majors (ExxonMobil, Royal Dutch Shell, Chevron, BP, and Total) have invested over $1Bn of shareholder funds in the three years following the Paris Agreement on misleading climate-related branding and lobbying.”
It’s clear that this climate denial machine isn’t running out of funds soon – that is, unless we do something about it.link
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Post by fretslider on Feb 3, 2021 6:56:11 GMT -5
And now why don't you tell us what you would replace that plastic with. Give us your best 2 or 3 alternatives We coped without plastic very well before plastic was introduced we could do the same again. I ain’t no scientist so can’t come up with another solution. But if they persist in the use of plastic, why not melt it down to make things like bricks for building instead of just dumping unwanted plastic bottles, boxes, and the like. Instead of polluting the Planet with it, causing untold trouble and dangers to sea life and other things. Just saying. I ain’t no scientist so can’t come up with another solutionI appreciate your candour. Don't you think if there were such an alternative we'd be using it? Your lack of scientific knowledge allows you to be manipulated on an emotional level. As the man who created Greta Thunberg puts it: How is it possible for you to be so easily tricked by something so simple as a story, because you are tricked?
Well, it all comes down to one core thing and that is emotional investment. The more emotionally invested you are in anything in your life, the less critical and the less objectively observant you become.” — David JP Phillips, We Don’t Have Time board of directors, “The Magical Science of Storytelling” For just £3 pounds per month... [add heartbreaking cause here] Try being more objectively observant.
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Post by fretslider on Feb 3, 2021 7:37:30 GMT -5
This is an interesting read. SEPTEMBER 05, 2019 | 3:12 PMTHE CLIMATE DENIAL MACHINE: HOW THE FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY BLOCKS CLIMATE ACTION. It takes a lot to defy common sense on a global scale, all to benefit one industry. But for decades, fossil fuel interests have done just that, running a sophisticated and sprawling network of well-funded think tanks and front groups with one goal: Stop any real climate action, no matter the cost to billions. In 1964, US Surgeon General Luther Terry released a landmark report that would drastically change American society. Having reviewed over 7,000 articles on smoking and disease, he confidently concluded that cigarettes were indeed causing a lung cancer epidemic that was impossible to ignore. This reality may have dismayed tobacco industry executives, but it definitely didn’t stop them from carrying on business as usual. In fact, in a radical effort to protect their product, cigarette companies launched a massive misinformation campaign that successfully shrouded the truth for years. These companies used their soaring budgets to create industrial-grade doubt, suppressing life-saving science in the process. The craziest part of that story? That today the exact same scenario is unfolding before our eyes. Fossil fuel interests are using the same strategies (and even strategists!) that the cigarette industry once used to deceive the public and protect their profits. The difference? This time around, it's not just smokers’ lives in danger. It’s everyone’s – and the stakes could not be higher. Just as this past June and July were recorded as the hottest ever, the climate denial machine continues to churn out junk-science, protecting what should be a fossilized dirty-energy industry. A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE DENIAL MACHINEIf that was a surprise, now might be a good time to grab your seat. The shocking truth is that this denial machine has been shaping public and political opinion on climate change since the 1970s.
It all began with Exxon Mobil.Decades ago, the company’s own scientists confirmed that carbon emissions were indeed warming our planet. As an internal report produced by Exxon researcher James Black from 1978 states, “A doubling of carbon dioxide is estimated to be capable of increasing the average global temperature by from 1° to 3°C, with a 10°C rise predicted at the poles.” Realizing that their product was on the line, Exxon Mobil began pushing forward a multimillion-dollar misinformation campaign to cast doubt on well-established science. So well-established in fact, even all those decades ago, that the company was using the same climate models it publicly attacked to plan future operations in the Arctic — a region they knew would become cheaper to drill as temperatures rose and sea ice rapidly melted. Exxon might have been a pioneering denier, but they were not alone. As the 1980s and 1990s carried on, a slew of other corporations joined this war against science. Notably, at a 1980 American Petroleum Institute meeting, representatives from companies including Exxon, Texaco, and Shell concluded that as a “likely impact,” by 2005 we would see 1 degree Celsius of warming. They also concluded that by 2038 we would see 2.5 degrees of warming causing “major economic consequences,” and that by 2067 we would face a 5 degree rise with “globally catastrophic effects.” In spite of knowing that, for every action the world took to address the crisis, the fossil fuel industry presented an equal and opposite reaction – constantly finding new ways to cloud the truth. Ultimately, these efforts produced the deeply-rooted denial machine we face today. HOW IT ALL WORKSIt’s not easy to shape public opinion when the facts are against you. So, the industry began attacking the facts, creating an alternate universe where decades of rising CO2 and rising temperatures had nothing to do with each other and scientists who claimed that we had to act were alarmists not to be trusted. Getting enough people to join them in that universe, well, that took some work. Their effort ultimately produced a full-on denial machine: a huge, sprawling network of talking heads, front groups, and faux-research built to persuade people that we have nothing to worry about. To understand how it all comes together, it’s worth looking at the five key parts. The Fuel: Fossil Fuel Industry Funding In order to run, any machine needs fuel. In the case of this denial machine, that fuel is money – and lots of it. The source? A fossil fuel industry that desperately wants to prolong our dependence on its product. Given that so many of the world’s most profitable companies produce oil, coal, or natural gas, it should be no surprise that these companies have plenty of "fuel" to keep the denial machine running. To be exact, a 2019 Influence Map report found that “the five largest publicly-traded oil and gas majors (ExxonMobil, Royal Dutch Shell, Chevron, BP, and Total) have invested over $1Bn of shareholder funds in the three years following the Paris Agreement on misleading climate-related branding and lobbying.” It’s clear that this climate denial machine isn’t running out of funds soon – that is, unless we do something about it.link The old canard - do your level best to make fossil fuels appear analagous to tobacco. They aren't and that should be obvious. That's part of the 'denial' package which has obvious connotations to holocaust denial. A big no-no. A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE DENIAL MACHINENobody denies the climate is in perpetual flux. However those who claim to be fighting climate change are going to end up like Cnut the Great. What's the difference between fossil fuels and renewables - apart from the fact the fossil fuels are 24/7/365? A fossil fuel company spends money looking for sources and bringing them on line. It then pays handsome amounts of cash in taxes. No public money involved. A renewables project needs public money from day 1. Have you never wondered why there is an exodus from California? California is among the list of states showing the largest exodus of residents in a new study from a moving company. United Van Lines' annual National Migration Study ...sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2021/01/06/california-exodus-top-5-largest-outbound-migration/wattsupwiththat.com/2019/11/09/naomi-no-evidence-oreskes-careful-for-what-you-wish-for-pt-2/Quotes of the week: hate as a weapon in the climate wars, RICO madness, losers, and all that wattsupwiththat.com/2015/10/13/quotes-of-the-week-hate-as-a-weapon-in-the-climate-wars-rico-madness-losers-and-all-that/
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toby1
Craftsman
Supplier of White Flags to the French Army.
Posts: 1,987
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Post by toby1 on Feb 3, 2021 10:10:10 GMT -5
I remember back in the 1960's when they promised us a new Ice Age was just around the corner, since then I never took Climate change seriously but I did keep an eye on what was going on and I distinctly remember that there used to be two parallel climate change movements, one was Natural Climate change and the other was Man made Climate change, these were both separate and distinct but after a while both 'Climate change discussions', receded from view, no mentions at all for a while but then the current,"Climate Change", started to emerge, they had sneakily merged ,'Natural climate change', with ,'Man made climate change'. It was reported that Al Gore made a load of money from Climate Change, how he did this is unclear but it does bear investigation. As I previously mentioned, during my work for Saudi Aramco I met various Aramco Engineers, one chap was very knowledgeable indeed and he told me that Aramco planned to transition away from Oil and Gas to Industry in the years 2045 to 2050, he said that the big push would be for everything to be electric, this was around 20 years ago when he told me and I see what he said is starting to come true, there is a push to make everything electric and they are using climate change to enable this change. The big question is the supposed shortage of rare earths to make efficient batteries, we had Electric powered vehicles for decades, think the Milk Floats that were active during the 1950's and 60's but lead-acid batteries are heavy and need to be looked after. The Japanese are developing super efficient petrol engines and also Hydrogen is being looked at as a clean burning fuel, the Japanese reckon the battery problem is going to preclude long distance travel with electric power, I reckon they may be right !
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apple
Apprentice
Posts: 210
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Post by apple on Feb 3, 2021 10:39:43 GMT -5
I remember back in the 1960's when they promised us a new Ice Age was just around the corner, since then I never took Climate change seriously but I did keep an eye on what was going on and I distinctly remember that there used to be two parallel climate change movements, one was Natural Climate change and the other was Man made Climate change, these were both separate and distinct but after a while both 'Climate change discussions', receded from view, no mentions at all for a while but then the current,"Climate Change", started to emerge, they had sneakily merged ,'Natural climate change', with ,'Man made climate change'. It was reported that Al Gore made a load of money from Climate Change, how he did this is unclear but it does bear investigation. As I previously mentioned, during my work for Saudi Aramco I met various Aramco Engineers, one chap was very knowledgeable indeed and he told me that Aramco planned to transition away from Oil and Gas to Industry in the years 2045 to 2050, he said that the big push would be for everything to be electric, this was around 20 years ago when he told me and I see what he said is starting to come true, there is a push to make everything electric and they are using climate change to enable this change. The big question is the supposed shortage of rare earths to make efficient batteries, we had Electric powered vehicles for decades, think the Milk Floats that were active during the 1950's and 60's but lead-acid batteries are heavy and need to be looked after. The Japanese are developing super efficient petrol engines and also Hydrogen is being looked at as a clean burning fuel, the Japanese reckon the battery problem is going to preclude long distance travel with electric power, I reckon they may be right ! I don't recall any of this, I've never heard of an ice age in the 60s.
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Post by fretslider on Feb 4, 2021 7:32:28 GMT -5
I remember back in the 1960's when they promised us a new Ice Age was just around the corner, since then I never took Climate change seriously but I did keep an eye on what was going on and I distinctly remember that there used to be two parallel climate change movements, one was Natural Climate change and the other was Man made Climate change, these were both separate and distinct but after a while both 'Climate change discussions', receded from view, no mentions at all for a while but then the current,"Climate Change", started to emerge, they had sneakily merged ,'Natural climate change', with ,'Man made climate change'. It was reported that Al Gore made a load of money from Climate Change, how he did this is unclear but it does bear investigation. As I previously mentioned, during my work for Saudi Aramco I met various Aramco Engineers, one chap was very knowledgeable indeed and he told me that Aramco planned to transition away from Oil and Gas to Industry in the years 2045 to 2050, he said that the big push would be for everything to be electric, this was around 20 years ago when he told me and I see what he said is starting to come true, there is a push to make everything electric and they are using climate change to enable this change. The big question is the supposed shortage of rare earths to make efficient batteries, we had Electric powered vehicles for decades, think the Milk Floats that were active during the 1950's and 60's but lead-acid batteries are heavy and need to be looked after. The Japanese are developing super efficient petrol engines and also Hydrogen is being looked at as a clean burning fuel, the Japanese reckon the battery problem is going to preclude long distance travel with electric power, I reckon they may be right ! I don't recall any of this, I've never heard of an ice age in the 60s. Oh yes it was very real - the coming ice age. Here's Leonard Nimoy to explain it..
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toby1
Craftsman
Supplier of White Flags to the French Army.
Posts: 1,987
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Post by toby1 on Feb 4, 2021 9:05:09 GMT -5
apple "I don't recall any of this, I've never heard of an ice age in the 60s." Were you paying attention though ?? I was !
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apple
Apprentice
Posts: 210
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Post by apple on Feb 4, 2021 11:31:53 GMT -5
I don't recall any of this, I've never heard of an ice age in the 60s. Oh yes it was very real - the coming ice age. Here's Leonard Nimoy to explain it.. 1970s sources Academic analysis of the peer-reviewed studies published at that time shows that most papers examining aspects of climate during the 1970s were either neutral or showed a warming trend.
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toby1
Craftsman
Supplier of White Flags to the French Army.
Posts: 1,987
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Post by toby1 on Feb 4, 2021 14:56:14 GMT -5
We are talking about the Lies we were told in the 1960's and the ,'coming Ice age', was definately one of the biggest Lies we were told.
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apple
Apprentice
Posts: 210
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Post by apple on Feb 5, 2021 11:22:37 GMT -5
We are talking about the Lies we were told in the 1960's and the ,'coming Ice age', was definately one of the biggest Lies we were told. People make predictions, they are often wrong. Sometimes they are right. Should we ignore all predictions? Also, I believe this prediction about the ice age was a prediction of global warming, I know, I know climate vs weather....
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toby1
Craftsman
Supplier of White Flags to the French Army.
Posts: 1,987
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Post by toby1 on Feb 5, 2021 12:19:28 GMT -5
""People make predictions, they are often wrong.""
But Apple, these were not just,'people', were they, they were scientists. Can you understand why there is so much skepticism ? There IS Climate Change, this is due to the waxing and waning of the sun and also I reckon sunspots may play a role. My beef is that so-called,"experts", reckon that Climate change can be affected by humans and they want to impose all sorts of restrictions and costs on the rest of us, but in reality they want to bind us to their will
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apple
Apprentice
Posts: 210
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Post by apple on Feb 5, 2021 19:01:52 GMT -5
""People make predictions, they are often wrong."" But Apple, these were not just,'people', were they, they were scientists. Can you understand why there is so much skepticism ? There IS Climate Change, this is due to the waxing and waning of the sun and also I reckon sunspots may play a role. My beef is that so-called,"experts", reckon that Climate change can be affected by humans and they want to impose all sorts of restrictions and costs on the rest of us, but in reality they want to bind us to their will Not that long ago doctors recommended smoking cigarettes, even to pregnant women. Point is, we are all learning, the curve never ends.
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