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Post by beth on Dec 5, 2016 16:11:43 GMT -5
This is a good, many sided discussion topic. I'll start it and be very interested in the various opinions. The site I've linked below (for further information) looks like a good one. You may want to bookmark it for other points of interest in the future. Many feel that Christmas marks Christ's birthday and that it honors Him. After all, can 2 billion professing Christians be wrong? At the same time, some few Christians don't observe Christmas, believing that Jesus didn't sanction it and that it dishonors Him. Who is right—and why?
Lots more here www.ucg.org/the-good-news/why-some-christians-dont-celebrate-christmas |
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ladylinda
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Post by ladylinda on Dec 5, 2016 16:33:16 GMT -5
Well, in the first place it's virtually certain that 25 December wasn't Jesus' birthday. The Orthodox Church celebrates what in the Catholic and most Protestant churches is called Epiphany.
Second, the Roman Emperor Constantine decreed that Jesus was born on 25 December. That was to tie it in with the existing festivals of Sol Invictus - the Unconquerable Sun - which pagans celebrated. Constantine wanted to use Christianity as a unifying force so he tried hard to assimilate it with as many pagan traditions as possible - maybe too many.
And of course as more and more pagans converted the elements of paganism in the new official religion grew. Missionaries to the Anglo-Saxons, Teutons and other pagan tribes recognised the virtue of assimilating Christianity to pagan rituals.
Easter, for instance, is named for an Anglo-Saxon goddess.
My own view is that it doesn't much matter what the true date is.
I celebrate Christmas on 25 December but I doubt if it is the true date.
Just as the probability is that Jesus was born between 7 and 6 BC, so too the exact date of His birth isn't important to me.
For me, Christmas is about the love of God for humans and it's a time we should be filled with love towards other people.
The Roma have a tradition of forgiving their enemies at that time of year; it's not easy but I always try to follow that tradition.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2016 17:13:20 GMT -5
Excellent article with many valid points. If I had a do-over I wouldn't lie to my boys about Santa and the North Pole but I can't undo that plus I don't think it's good to go into debt but my preference. I found the following article in the summer and now is a good time to post as it goes well with Beth's choice of article. Christmas Mourning by Keith Green I'll never forget the incredible joy and expectation of Christmas. Our house smelled like a Douglas fir. The tinsel and ornaments sparkled in the colored lights. Friends and relatives came to visit... all with smiles and laughter... and all with presents!! The season was full of life, warmth, and giving. They are the very best memories of my childhood. The air outside was cold and crisp. And inside, always the smell of something baking. If anyone asked me to describe "joy" in one word, it would have been Christmas. I remember taking a drive to an area of town where a whole street prided itself on their Christmas displays and lights. The whole neighborhood spent thousands of dollars to light up their front lawns with scenes of snow, Santas, reindeer, and mangers. I always used to wonder what the manger had to do with Santa, candy canes, and jingle bells, but it didn't bother me enough to ask. When I was about 10 or 11, I noticed the word "Xmas." I wondered what the "X" was for. I concluded it meant "criss," as in "crisscross." It never even entered my mind that it replaced "Christ"! Yes, there were school Christmas plays and other things that talked about the birth of Jesus having something to do with Christmas, but it never really was the main emphasis in my young mind. I only wished that it would be Christmas all year, and Jesus had nothing to do with it! But when I was 21, I met Jesus, and since then it has been Christmas all year... and Jesus has had everything to do with it! The Origin Of Christmas In the third century A.D., a wonderful thing happened. Constantine, the Roman emperor, became a Christian. For almost 300 years the Christians had been praying for their emperor's salvation. Nobody believed it was true! But then came the royal decree... Christianity was made the religion of the state. Everyone was strongly urged to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and only deity. At the risk of seeming uncooperative (and believing that it would be safest politically and socially), almost everyone in the empire made "professions of faith" in the new religion. This, of course, delighted Constantine. After a while there arose a great problem. What were they to do with all their other gods? And what about all the great feasts and celebrations, especially the winter solstice and the spring equinox? Before Constantine's conversion, the whole empire would lustily celebrate these festivals to their gods and goddesses. What would they do now? Constantine knew that, although almost everyone had outwardly confessed Christianity, they were in no way prepared to give up their cherished celebrations. What he had on his hands was a kingdom full of "unconverted converts"! As the restlessness and dissatisfaction of his people grew, the emperor knew something had to be done. So, in desperation, he declared two major "religious" holidays. They would correspond exactly to the times of the old great celebrations. He declared December 25 (for centuries celebrated as Saturnalia, the birthday of the sun) as the celebration of the birthday of Christ. (Although historians say that Jesus was probably born sometime in October.) A great mass or religious service would be held in honor of Jesus' birth on that day (hence, Christ-mas). He also declared the old holiday of the spring equinox to be the celebration of Christ's resurrection. (The old emphasis of the festival was the worship of the goddess of fertility-which is where we get the Easter Bunny.) The grumbling masses were thus quieted when they realized that they could once again celebrate their great holidays. Oh yes, the festivals might be called something different, and they might have to go to some "religious ceremonies," but for the most part, things could get back to normal, and their old festivities could again be heartily resumed. St. Nick The history of the man Nicholas (who was later made a saint by the Roman Church) is vague and sketchy. But one thing stands out about his character - he loved the poor and needy, and at every Christmas he used to give gifts to the widows and orphans. He was loved by all, especially children. This is how the tradition and practice of gift-giving was started. The folklore fantasy called Santa Claus grew over the centuries and now is the central image of a secular Christmas, where an average of over $150 each is spent on gifts for every man, woman, and child in the United States alone! The True Meaning Of Christmas I've heard a lot of talk (especially by Christians) about the true meaning of Christmas. I've seen Christians go in for all the trappings and trimmings. They spend hours, even days, in department stores trying to figure out what to buy for friends and relatives who already have everything they need ... sitting around the tree and watching nervously while someone opens up the present you got them, as they try to look surprised and squeal with delight... parents teaching their young what they call "a harmless fairy tale" - the story of Santa and how "he's gonna bring you lots of presents, so you better be good." And all the while, a world full of starving, deprived people are silently, invisibly looking in through your living room window begging for a scrap of food, a rag to keep them from shivering to death, and an answer to their misery, suffering, and oppression. When we consider all the money spent by all of us, during a season that's greatest meaning is the Father giving us His only Son to come live and die for us, we must cry out against the injustice of an American, Christian people, who have so much and do so little. The true meaning of this season should be to give ourselves to the work of spreading the Gospel. Proclaiming freedom to the captives! Giving them bread to eat, then pointing them to the Bread of Life, to fill their hungry souls. Some Suggetsions As a part of your Christmas celebration this year, we suggest taking your children to a ghetto, to a hospital, to an orphanage, to an old-age home. Teach them the meaning of giving. Teach them it is foolish for us to spend money on things we don't need, and on things that others don't need. Let them spread joy to those who are miserable! Let them give a smile to an old woman's face, whose own children have forgotten and abandoned her in a convalescent hospital. Let them empty their piggy banks and send the money to missions and the poor. Let there be giving! Costly giving! Let us give our Lord Jesus the whole world for His birthday! The world and the Lord await our response... www.lastdaysministries.org/Groups/1000086209/Last_Days_Ministries/Articles/By_Keith_Green/Christmas_Mourning/Christmas_Mourning.aspx |
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Jessiealan
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Post by Jessiealan on Dec 5, 2016 17:31:32 GMT -5
What a wonderful thread for this time of year. Thank you Linda for the nice post and thank you Beth and Chef for these wonderful and informative articles. I am short on time but shall be back to read every word. Then, maybe, post something. This is a great start to the Christmas season this year.  |
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Post by mouse on Dec 6, 2016 9:48:23 GMT -5
i don't mind father Christmas and the fairy world of the north pole etc ..its a bit of majic for children...
but at the same time it has become a festival with some religious roots...and as Christianity has played such a big important part in our countries....then the religious parts of Christmas should not be over looked
unless we are to go way way back to real yule and the real reasons for feastings etc...I find a bit of every thing the best way to be
I love Christmas and everything that goes with it..carols..parties..presents both giving and receiving....theres no need to go over the top with consumerism
for me its about family joining together..and making the effort to join together inspite of the difficulties which the modern world can put in the way of family get togethers
I love to see my family all gathered under one roof and all siting down to gether to eat..talk play daft games and generally all relax
Christmas is what you make
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Post by beth on Dec 6, 2016 11:25:15 GMT -5
I agree with mouse, 100%. Christmas is what one makes of it as an individual and a family member. It has been that way for many many years. Who cares why it started? Yule is a wonderful festival, too ... all about the turning of the wheel of the year - season to season. Myths that add a nice touch to cold, frozen winter .. from burning the Yule log to Candlemas in early February. Many of the celebrations are about religion but some are about tradition and they are important, too.
Being uber sensitive and offended about one thing or another doesn't enter into the Christmas spirit .. to me, more about social traditions than about the religious aspects, but it all intertwines. The manger scenes and Midnight Mass are very important. The carols, Cantatas and charity participation add so much, I'd hate to miss them. The goodwill brings it all together.
Sometimes it gets a little hectic and I feel relieved when the last gift and cup of eggnog is over, but I'm always glad to see it coming again. I have resigned myself to the weekend after black Friday being the start of the season.
Hopefully, this will be a great, enjoyable time here at Babylon as well as in our private lives.
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Post by mouse on Dec 7, 2016 5:33:03 GMT -5
our first returnee arrives next Monday as soon as term ends...and then the decorations and tree will go up..the wreathe on the front door and the greenery and baubles along the mantle piece of the fire place...I love the greenery on the fire place it fits in so well with stone
a real focal point
oh yes and the solar lights in the porch..mustn't forget them
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Post by beth on Dec 7, 2016 13:11:58 GMT -5
Getting back on subject, I'll guess the whole point of Christians rejecting Christmas as a religious holiday had to do with rejecting tradition and the long held definitions of the real meaning of Christmas. Rather than harking back to the old, they want to reject what others through the ages have held dear.
Should Christmas evolve into a commercial holiday to usher in winter, with another sacred date added to spring to celebrate the birth of Christ near the time of Easter? Birth and death, intertwined?
I don't see that happening until the traditionalists among us are all gone ... or, perhaps, ever.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2016 17:03:29 GMT -5
Getting back on subject, I'll guess the whole point of Christians rejecting Christmas as a religious holiday had to do with rejecting tradition and the long held definitions of the real meaning of Christmas. Rather than harking back to the old, they want to reject what others through the ages have held dear. Should Christmas evolve into a commercial holiday to usher in winter, with another sacred date added to spring to celebrate the birth of Christ near the time of Easter? Birth and death, intertwined? I don't see that happening until the traditionalists among us are all gone ... or, perhaps, ever. I don't see another date being set aside. I guess each family will celebrate according to what they are comfortable with. |
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Post by beth on Dec 7, 2016 19:20:33 GMT -5
Getting back on subject, I'll guess the whole point of Christians rejecting Christmas as a religious holiday had to do with rejecting tradition and the long held definitions of the real meaning of Christmas. Rather than harking back to the old, they want to reject what others through the ages have held dear. Should Christmas evolve into a commercial holiday to usher in winter, with another sacred date added to spring to celebrate the birth of Christ near the time of Easter? Birth and death, intertwined? I don't see that happening until the traditionalists among us are all gone ... or, perhaps, ever. I don't see another date being set aside. I guess each family will celebrate according to what they are comfortable with. I think you're right, Chef. Those who don't believe December 25 should be celebrated as Christ's birthday don't seem to be heavily promoting their personal point of view to others. I'm sure most everyone has some kind of tradition for Christmas. Hoping it's a happy time this year for all. |
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Post by mouse on Dec 8, 2016 6:03:30 GMT -5
"""I'll guess the whole point of Christians rejecting Christmas as a religious holiday"""
what Christians..ive never heard of this before ...
the dates we now celebrate was pure pragmatism by those imposing dates...that's one of the good things about christinaity....apart from the basic messages...it adapts and does not totally stifle its self in dogma and backwardness
carrot and stick....much better than all stick or all carrot
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Post by beth on Dec 8, 2016 11:55:39 GMT -5
"""I'll guess the whole point of Christians rejecting Christmas as a religious holiday""" what Christians..ive never heard of this before ... the dates we now celebrate was pure pragmatism by those imposing dates...that's one of the good things about christinaity....apart from the basic messages...it adapts and does not totally stifle its self in dogma and backwardness carrot and stick....much better than all stick or all carrot Mouse, did you read the articles at the first of this thread. They pinpoint what the whole thread is about. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2016 13:02:11 GMT -5
"""I'll guess the whole point of Christians rejecting Christmas as a religious holiday""" what Christians..ive never heard of this before ... the dates we now celebrate was pure pragmatism by those imposing dates...that's one of the good things about christinaity....apart from the basic messages...it adapts and does not totally stifle its self in dogma and backwardnessany carrot and stick....much better than all stick or all carrot "it adapts and does not totally stifle its self in dogma and backwardness" can you please expand on this thought? |
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Post by mouse on Dec 8, 2016 20:28:29 GMT -5
"""I'll guess the whole point of Christians rejecting Christmas as a religious holiday""" what Christians..ive never heard of this before ... the dates we now celebrate was pure pragmatism by those imposing dates...that's one of the good things about christinaity....apart from the basic messages...it adapts and does not totally stifle its self in dogma and backwardness carrot and stick....much better than all stick or all carrot Mouse, did you read the articles at the first of this thread. They pinpoint what the whole thread is about. I skimmed it..but have listened to arguments about this for years..and taking into account the earliest time..conditions..social..knowledge and educational mores and politics etc ...i swing toward the pragmatism of the early chuch...and beyond up to the convocation of Nicia and its long reaching effects I don't see how else the beliefe system could have been transported from its eastern base the fact is it was never a religious holiday but was rather a religious festival over taking already existing religious and cultural feast days ..the holiday aspect is a very recent innovation festival....as feast days back in the day were not actually holidays |
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Jessiealan
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Post by Jessiealan on Dec 8, 2016 20:39:58 GMT -5
Mouse, did you read the articles at the first of this thread. They pinpoint what the whole thread is about. I skimmed it..but have listened to arguments about this for years..and taking into account the earliest time..conditions..social..knowledge and educational mores and politics etc ...i swing toward the pragmatism of the early chuch...and beyond up to the convocation of Nicia and its long reaching effects I don't see how else the beliefe system could have been transported from its eastern base the fact is it was never a religious holiday but was rather a religious festival over taking already existing religious and cultural feast days ..the holiday aspect is a very recent innovation festival....as feast days back in the day were not actually holidays It was transformed into a religious (Christian) holiday long before our time. Our traditions go back long enough that, in the western world, they prevail. We do celebrate it as Christians, but keep our family holiday favorite things as well. It is a joy to experience each year. I never tire of each and every holiday celebration. |
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