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Tai Chi
Nov 9, 2015 15:52:11 GMT -5
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Post by Scottish Lassie on Nov 9, 2015 15:52:11 GMT -5
Hi Men an tol, At the time I thought that it could be spiritual, but since reading what you had to say about Tai Chi, I no longer think that.
Spirit belongs to another dimension apart from the physical, and these exercises are designed for the control of the physical body in order to improve the wellbeing of the participant. It has nothing to do with the Spirit dimension, as far as I can see.
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Post by men an tol on Nov 9, 2015 16:25:11 GMT -5
Hi Men an tol, At the time I thought that it could be spiritual, but since reading what you had to say about about Tai Chi, I no longer think that. Spirit belongs to another dimension apart from the physical, and these exercises are designed for the control of the physical body in order to improve the wellbeing of the participant. It has nothing to do with the Spirit dimension, as far as I can see. I agree Scottish Lassie that Spirituality as you define it as being part of a spirit dimension is most likely not part of Tai Chi. However, That doesn't mean that it cannot be spiritual as many practitioners of Tai Chi have expressed that they have achieved some degree of spirituality when practicing its 'moving meditation.' Some of these people were religious and some were not religious. I'll repeat, Tai Chi can have a spiritual experience for the practitioner and has had such as witnessed by many people but it is not religious although some who practice it are religious. I suspect that you do not believe that because it has (as near as I am aware) nothing to do with what you describe. There are, and have been, other philosophies and many people (in the millions) who do not recognize what you describe and yet have what they and others describe as spiritual experiences and this has been so for many ages. I realize that for you these experiences you relate are important but consider the numbers of philosophies which never had contact with what you have related. Just those in the Americas, or those in the Celtic cultures or even the Pict cultures before the Celts. These too had their spiritual concepts and many had religious concepts, often very different from Western religions and, of course, the religion of Islam. I would like to think that you understand that there is no connection between these philosophies and what you have related.
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Tai Chi
Nov 9, 2015 19:01:21 GMT -5
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Post by Scottish Lassie on Nov 9, 2015 19:01:21 GMT -5
Hi Men an tol, I am sure that there is no conection. And for someone to use the word spiritual in regard to these philsophies is ludicrous as far as I am concerned, because the Spirit worlds and the physical worlds are totally different.
A person has to believe that Spirit worlds exist and there is no evidence in what you have stated about the functioning of Tai Chi. Would you like to define the spiritual state that the exercises of Tai Chi produce,? It doesn't seem possible unless one can accept that these dimensions exist
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Post by men an tol on Nov 9, 2015 19:30:42 GMT -5
Hi Men an tol, I am sure that there is no conection. And for someone to use the word spiritual in regard to these philsophies is ludicrous as far as I am concerned, because the Spirit worlds and the physical worlds are totally different. A person has to believe that Spirit worlds exist and there is no evidence in what you have stated about the functioning of Tai Chi. Would you like to define the spiritual state that the exercises of Tai Chi produce,? It doesn't seem possible unless one can accept thatthesedimensions exist eric-taichi.blogspot.com/2012/09/spirituality-in-tai-chi.html Meditation in Motion Saturday, September 8, 2012 Spirituality in Tai Chi What does spirituality mean in tai chi and in everyday life? The word has been used in popular literature to mean many things. To many, spiritual means living with our inner selves instead of living for the external things in our lives. People who are spiritual are comfortable with who they are and are not motivated by the external. Spiritual does not mean believing in a higher being outside of themselves. That's religion. Spiritual people may be religious. Religious people may be spiritual. However, the words do not mean the same thing. Spirituality (inner self) is important to maintaining health and well being. Long-term experience of any kind manifests itself in our bodies. For example, if we are feeling a lot of external stress, our shoulders become hunched over because we "store" stress there. Wherever tension is held in our bodies, we develop blockages to qi flow. If we habitually stand with locked knee joints, we develop blockages and stagnant qi that manifest as foot, leg, hip, or back pain. What does any of this have to do with tai chi? Tai chi can help us learn to see and understand the internal aspects of ourselves. Sun Lu-Tang, creator of Sun style tai chi, claimed that the highest level of tai chi is when the practitioner merges with the Dao and is in harmony with nature. Jing (精) describes how the tai chi mind quiets down and ignores the mental chatter that normally bombards us. Jing means to be focused and aware of your self and our surroundings. My friend, Caroline Demoise, wrote a book, Tai Chi as Spiritual Practice. In it she says, "Slow movement calms your mind and leads you on a path inward to experience the stillness at the center of your being. The energy of tai chi is innately meditative and produces this inner alignment. The underlying principles teach you to harmonize with Tao and flow with change." Slow movements help the mind to focus when taking deep breaths and help to sink the qi to the dan tian. It can take time to develop a quiet mind. With practice, the forms become second nature and the mind begins to lead the body and mental quietness develops. With each successive practice, it takes less time to return to a quiet mind. Mental quietness calms the mental chatter. It helps us cope with stress and crisis. Breathing is another important part of tai chi. Slow deep breathing activates the parasympathetic nervous system to calm down the body and mind. This can also help with stagnant qi. Stagnant qi can feel like a heaviness or slowness in the body. Abdominal breathing can be used during the forms practice to help with developing calmness and focus. Speed can be controlled by using one inhale for each opening movement and one exhale for each closing movement. Long-term practice of tai chi promotes the flow of qi. The movements loosen the joints, muscles, and tendons. In fact, one of the fundamental principles of tai chi is song (松), which means relax and loosen. When practicing tai chi with song in mind, the joints open up and the qi flow improves. Further tension in the muscles can be relaxed by being aware of substantial and insubstantial in our weight shifts. In addition, song can refer to relaxing and loosening the mind. Learning tai chi requires the interaction of the mind and body in ways that cannot be done with Western exercise systems. The meditative aspects achieved through jing help maintain calm when the chaos of everyday life constantly surrounds us. The relaxation from song helps relax the mind to help us focus in our inner selves. Long-term practice teaches us to integrate mind, body, and spirit so we can calm down and live from our inner focus. When you use your mind actively to focus on and enhance your body movements, you build a strong mind/body connection. Your energy follows your intention. This is tai chi. © 2012 Eric Borreson This was previously published in a modified form in Yang-Sheng magazine.
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Post by men an tol on Nov 9, 2015 19:38:19 GMT -5
Hi Men an tol, I am sure that there is no conection. And for someone to use the word spiritual in regard to these philsophies is ludicrous as far as I am concerned, because the Spirit worlds and the physical worlds are totally different. A person has to believe that Spirit worlds exist and there is no evidence in what you have stated about the functioning of Tai Chi. Would you like to define the spiritual state that the exercises of Tai Chi produce,? It doesn't seem possible unless one can accept thatthesedimensions exist Scottish Lassie, Spirituality is not just about some difference between Tai Chi and Religion. Spirituality as different from religion comes about from many sources and peoples. While you obviously believe in the definition of spirituality you have offered, that represents only a very small number of people in the world, most people, in most eras and most philosophies have a different view. Following is something more representative of mankind. ***************** Difference between Religion and Spirituality Religion and spirituality are two terms that both refer to the beliefs and philosophies of people. They are often used in very similar contexts and there is some overlap between the terms. An individual's belief in an organized religion may be very spiritual, but spiritualism does not always lead the individual to a traditional, organized religious system. Many people who have an interest in spirituality do not consider themselves to be part of any religion. Similarly, it is possible to be religious without having a deep spiritual connection with your faith. Types Spirituality is usually associated with an inner search for enlightenment. This may be achieved through practices such as prayer or meditation. It is a very internal process that requires hard work and introspection. Spirituality is often associated with New Age beliefs or alternative ideas, but it can also involve an individual awakening or participation in a conventional religion. Spiritualism within religion is often identified as being religious rather than being spiritual. Someone who is particularly involved in their religion may be referred to as devout or religious rather than spiritual. The term spiritualism usually implies a philosophical or spiritual interest that is not linked to a particular religion. Spirituality may imply an openness to different interpretations and routes of achieving this connection or understanding, whereas a member of a particular religious group may feel that theirs is the one true religion. However, the idea of spirituality is often used in a looser way, when someone wants to suggest that they have a deeper side even though they are not part of an organized religion, even if they have not taken much time to explore their own spiritual side. The term spirituality offers a different form of self-identification than simply being a member of a particular religious group or being non-religious. Religions also come in a number of different forms. The largest religions in the world, by the number of believers, are Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and those belief systems that are classified as Folk Religions and Chinese Folk Religions. There are also many other systems of belief, such as Shinto, Sikhism, Judaism, Jainism, Wicca and Rastafarianism, although they are less common, and there are also divisions within religious systems. Organization The defining characteristic of a religion is that it is an organized form of belief. Someone who is part of a particular religion will usually join in with organized activities or rituals, and they will probably follow the teachings or philosophies either of a living spiritual leader or of an important religious figure such as Jesus, Moses or Buddha. Religion is, therefore, often based on the past, while spirituality tends to be more about individual development in the present. Spirituality is more internal in nature than religion. An individual can develop their own sense of spirituality, which may stem from their own experiences and view of the world, or from elements taken from the teachings of religions or philosophies created by others. Spirituality does not require participation in rituals or the following of religious laws, although such organized systems may sometimes be followed in order to attain a spiritual state. A religion is a system of belief. However, not every organized system of belief will be widely considered a religion. Religion is usually associated with a traditional, established order. Newer systems of belief may be referred to as cults or new religious movements, although they share many of the features of more traditional religions. The Individual Spirituality tends to be much more about the individual than the group. Spiritual individuals may come up with their own set of beliefs rather than following a particular religion. When someone considers themselves to be spiritual, whether or not they are a member of a particular religion, they often mean that they feel some sort of connection with a higher power of some kind, or that they have spent time exploring the spiritual side of their being. Spirituality is more about an inner quest than an outward performance, so it can be harder to recognize and it can also be much more individual than religion. People may achieve spirituality in their own unique way. Some people have found a spiritual connection through prayer or meditation, while others were struck by spirituality while walking, surfing, gardening or even working. Typically, spirituality involves feeling a connection to a higher power or to a larger reality, or finding a deeper understanding of one's own nature. An individual may spend a lot of time thinking about spirituality, but without being part of a particular religion. Although members of a religious group are often highly spiritual people, there are also people who are involved in religion more for the social and cultural aspects than for the spiritual elements. It is not necessary to be spiritual in order to be part of a religion. Some people who identify themselves as Christian, for example, only attend church on special occasions such as weddings and may never consider the spiritual meaning of their faith and lives. Others will be deeply spiritually involved in their religion and they will engage with the ideas and beliefs that it espouses. Similarities and Differences Although there is some overlap between religion and spirituality, the term religion is used to refer to certain organized systems of belief, while spirituality is usually associated with people who are not members of a particular religion. Religious people may also be spiritual people, but someone who identifies themselves as part of a particular religion is not necessarily spiritual. Similarly, a spiritual person does not have to be a member of a certain religion, although they may also be religious. Spiritualism is a feature of the individual, not the group. Religion tends to involve group activities, rituals and rules. Religion is about being a member of a group and following the teachings of others, who may be considered spiritual leaders. Spiritualism is about finding one's own path, which may require the assistance of religious practices or spiritual leaders, but which can also be achieved alone or through unconventional means.
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Tai Chi
Nov 10, 2015 2:54:58 GMT -5
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Post by Scottish Lassie on Nov 10, 2015 2:54:58 GMT -5
Hi Men an tol, I have read all that you have written and understood the terms that have been used. To me the word spirituality must have something to do with Spirit so now I ask you to define Spirit.
Jesus did say that the Kingdom of God is within and God is Spirit. And you have said that spirituality has to do with the inner self, which ofcourse is what we in ECKANKAR also believe.
The difference is that in contemplation we focus on the spiritual eye ( third eye ) which is why the people in India paint the round spot on the forehead a little above and between the physical eyes
The spiritual eye can be any colour depending on your spirituality which I think also has to do with which chakra is functioning at that moment in time, though I'm not quite sure of that.
The colour red has to do with the sexual organs then it works up the body to the chakra on top of the head which is supposed to be where Soul leaves the body. I unfortunately have forgotten thenames of the different chakras.
Besides seeing colours you can also see scenes and you can hear different sounds via your inner hearing, not your physical ears. I believe Soul can leave the body through the spiritual eye as well.
I remember lying down on the couch after having lunch, and when I closed my eyes, I suddenly saw an amazing yellow ball and as I wondered what it was, I suddenly entered the yellow ball and I had the impression that I was in an ornate designed circular room It really was a wonderful experience.
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Post by mouse on Nov 10, 2015 4:10:14 GMT -5
Hi Mouse, It is obvious to me that you indeed had a past life experience, which to an ECKist is proof that there is such a thing as reincarnation. The UFO to me, as we haven't that kind of technology as far as we know. I would say that it was an Alien Craft. I do believe that Aliens exist and have visited our world and probably are still here. I have seen a Flying Saucer during the day, so it was quite clear. I am a believer without a doubt. as i said we had no connections at all with the hall or the family who lived there..none at all but i don't see it as any type of proof of reincarnation etc...its just some thing i cannot explain..the red dress design would make it mid Victorian...so interesting but not life changing the UFO..is to my mind simply that.. an unidentified flying object...and while we were quite advanced technology speaking ...we certainly couldn't make thing disappear at a click in December 1964 or January 65[we had had rocket technology in the shape of the v bombs during the war..then there was the Russian sputnik and little lemon sent off for a ride around space and Yuri Gragarin but alien spacecraft..who knows that's why they are named UFO,s i certainly am not dismissive of alien visitors..the probability is stacked in favour of their being other beings out there and the evidence is well on probable visitations from other beings...sightings of craft go back to the earliest of writings and there are drawings and at least one artifact which back up the theory....i say theory as until there is proof positive then its still theory pure fiction the best scenario for me would be that at some time in the past the earth was visited by a group..who came saw and then decided to colonise the planet with a group of CHOSEN people...and that that chosen group just happened to evolve in the people we know s jews in todays world...it would be a sublime joke ...and a poke in the eye for all those who hate them so irrationally it would also provide so many answers as to why they appear to being general some of the brightest people on the planet the origins of a god the a master mind lord some where up there and the concept of heaven some where up there..becomes explainable and evil being some where down there also becomes more rational every thing would fit together like a large scale jigsaw...and there are those who would have so much egg on their faces.. brilliant
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Post by mouse on Nov 10, 2015 4:16:12 GMT -5
Hi Men an tol, I am sure that there is no conection. And for someone to use the word spiritual in regard to these philsophies is ludicrous as far as I am concerned, because the Spirit worlds and the physical worlds are totally different. A person has to believe that Spirit worlds exist and there is no evidence in what you have stated about the functioning of Tai Chi. Would you like to define the spiritual state that the exercises of Tai Chi produce,? It doesn't seem possible unless one can accept that these dimensions exist we are not speaking of spirits but spirituality..which as both Men and my self have pointed out spirituality is not relegated to any particular era..race..philosophy..religion...ethenticiy.. """"Spirituality is more about an inner quest than an outward performance,"""" """The defining characteristic of a religion is that it is an organized form of belief"""
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Tai Chi
Nov 10, 2015 6:10:11 GMT -5
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Post by Scottish Lassie on Nov 10, 2015 6:10:11 GMT -5
Hi Mouse, It is as clear as day to me. It obviously means something or you would not have had that experience. Every supernatural happening is there to tell you something, It is up to you to work out what it means.But seemingly you are quite happy to leave it as just being something unusual that happened, so that's it.!!!
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Tai Chi
Nov 10, 2015 7:54:05 GMT -5
Post by mouse on Nov 10, 2015 7:54:05 GMT -5
Hi Mouse, It is as clear as day to me. It obviously means something or you would not have had that experience. Every supernatural happening is there to tell you something, It is up to you to work out what it means.But seemingly you are quite happy to leave it as just being something unusual that happened, so that's it.!!! a supernatural or non every day happening is just that.....some thing unexplainable..some thing which cannot be explained...I am not going to attribute it or put a label upon it...other wise we get into the realms of making false explanations and giving false labels we are far from knowing every thing we experience and what we don't know far exceeds what we do know..perhaps one day as with other things an explanation will be found..just as the plagues of Egypt have been found to have rational and scientific explanations and was actually a series of events one event causing the subsequent events and so on etc .. that these plagues were put down to the work of a God is quite rational thinking given the time.. place ,,and mindset of the era but that era was a long long time ago.....but we still have a long way to go
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Jessiealan
xr
Member of the Month, October 2013
Posts: 8,726
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Post by Jessiealan on Nov 10, 2015 9:36:55 GMT -5
Hi Mouse, It is as clear as day to me. It obviously means something or you would not have had that experience. Every supernatural happening is there to tell you something, It is up to you to work out what it means.But seemingly you are quite happy to leave it as just being something unusual that happened, so that's it.!!! I have had several things happen in my lifetime that I cannot explain. One involved my daughter calling from a vacation in Florida to tell me she had lost her keys and wondering what she should do. About 15 minutes after we hung up, I suddenly knew where her keys were though I had no clues from her at all. I called her back and told her where to look and, sure enough, they were found!. A few more similar things and a couple of others that were more amazing but are personal and I'd rather not get into that. The mind is amazing. Don't ever condescend to people who have had such experiences. They may know more than we do.
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Post by men an tol on Nov 10, 2015 9:43:12 GMT -5
Hi Men an tol, I have read all that you have written and understood the terms that have been used. To me the word spirituality must have something to do with Spirit so now I ask you to define Spirit. Jesus did say that the Kingdom of God is within and God is Spirit. And you have said that spirituality has to do with the inner self, which ofcourse is what we in ECKANKAR also believe. The difference is that in contemplation we focus on the spiritual eye ( third eye ) which is why the people in India paint the round spot on the forehead a little above and between the physical eyes The spiritual eye can be any colour depending on your spirituality which I think also has to do with which chakra is functioning at that moment in time, though I'm not quite sure of that. The colour red has to do with the sexual organs then it works up the body to the chakra on top of the head which is supposed to be where Soul leaves the body. I unfortunately have forgotten thenames of the different chakras. Besides seeing colours you can also see scenes and you can hear different sounds via your inner hearing, not your physical ears. I believe Soul can leave the body through the spiritual eye as well. I remember lying down on the couch after having lunch, and when I closed my eyes, I suddenly saw an amazing yellow ball and as I wondered what it was, I suddenly entered the yellow ball and I had the impression that I was in an ornate designed circular room It really was a wonderful experience. I think not Scottish Lassie. Again, this entire thread began by and large because you didn't believe that the word 'Spiritual' could be applied to Tai Chi and you did so by stating: “ . . . Hi Men an tol, I am sure that there is no conection. And for someone to use the word spiritual in regard to these philsophies is ludicrous as far as I am concerned, because the Spirit worlds and the physical worlds are totally different. . . . . . . A person has to believe that Spirit worlds exist and there is no evidence in what you have stated about the functioning of Tai Chi. Would you like to define the spiritual state that the exercises of Tai Chi produce,? It doesn't seem possible unless one can accept thatthesedimensions exist . . . . “ I responded to that question with one reply specific to Tai Chi in the specific and another in the context of general use of multiple philosophies and provided the evidence you asked for, now you want me to define the word 'spirit' saying in part, “ . . . . I have read all that you have written and understood the terms that have been used. To me the word spirituality must have something to do with Spirit so now I ask you to define Spirit. . . . . “ This is changing the foundation of this thread and moving into the area which will end up with a dialog relative only to your religion. Not that such could not be addressed but in doing so such a dialog would of a necessity turn quite negative relative to your religion and I have no desire to enter into such an exchange. It would also demonstrate that other philosophies have no such concept (as you have related) and even early Christian writings approached it quite differently. So I suggest that if you have such a need of understanding, to do as I have suggested in the past, and that is to delve into the writings which under lay the foundations of your religion, that is the Gnostic writings. Which were sources clearly used by Paul Twitchell and L.Ron Hubbard when they worked together. You have stated here, “ . . . I have read all that you have written and understood the terms that have been used. . . . “ but you (Scottish Lassie) have not yet stated that you believe them and whether you now understand that spiritual and spirituality do apply to them. I realize the difficulty anyone has in making such a concession when they are approaching it from a deeply held belief, and that was never the intention or need to the position of Tai Chi in this as religion was never part of this and never meant to be part of this. You are the one who has made religion part of this dialog. Again, no one is asking you to do other than to believe what you believe, and there is no expectation that you will accept that Tai Chi (a moving meditation) has the possibility of producing spirituality within the practitioner. While I believe that exchanges such as this one, (even though it lacks depth) is not good for you and that you cannot accept what has been offered, but the truth of the philophies of our world cannot be changed to fit your belief concepts.
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Jessiealan
xr
Member of the Month, October 2013
Posts: 8,726
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Post by Jessiealan on Nov 10, 2015 9:43:09 GMT -5
Hi Jessiealan, no!!! We do not support them financially, we do however support those who are interested in joining but are unable to be a paying member. Supporting them financially would be through dues, membership fees, tithes and the like. Any org. like that has to have money, if not from the members then from some other source. I am curious about where their funding comes from. Since yuo're in Australia, do you know of Hillsong Church and Darlene Zschech. I have a friend who was very fond of her music at one time.
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Post by mouse on Nov 11, 2015 2:49:13 GMT -5
I agree 100% the mind is indeed amazing...and there is so much that we don't know...one day perhaps we will... ive always been interested in things of the mind such as stigmata..self induced trances...mind over matter..from the religious to the pagan! dervish.. it was/is said that Ghengis Khans shaman was a master in his field of the unexplainable...from foretelling to healing..and majic arts..things which had been passed down to him from his shaman father through the generations then theres Nostradamus..and yorksires Mother Shipton etc....it cannot all have come from hallucinatory mushrooms and the like...or can it many things of the past we now know have rational explanations...for the rest we will have to bide our time
an every day experience is when people say you read my mind or you broke my dream we also know that long term couples or friends can finnish off each others sentences.. or are without words on the same wavelength its nothing more than knowing that other person very well...and the silent conversations via the eyes its nothing exceptional although some people do read more into these things than they warrant
at our womens meetings there are two people who I dare not look at if the speaker of the day rambles on or whatever because I know what they are thinking just as they know that I know what they are thinking... if we were to enlarge on that theme we could go off into the realms of fantasy and make attributions which would be false
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Jessiealan
xr
Member of the Month, October 2013
Posts: 8,726
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Post by Jessiealan on Nov 11, 2015 10:33:17 GMT -5
"Religion is for people who’re afraid of going to hell. Spirituality is for those who’ve already been there."
Vine Deloria, Jr.
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